howie87 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 In a guns only dogfight (with a gun pod on the Hawk!), which would you rather be in and why?
Flying Penguin Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 In a guns only dogfight (with a gun pod on the Hawk!), which would you rather be in and why? Hawk. With my skills I need as modern an ejector seat as possible! Per Ardua Ad Aquarium :drink: Specs: Intel i7-9700K, GTX 2080TI, 32GB DDR4, ASUS ROG Strix Z390-E, Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2
Wissam24 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Given that the Gnat was known as the Sabre-killer, I reckon its successor would probably do alright.
outlawal2 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Hawk. With my skills I need as modern an ejector seat as possible! That made me laugh.. NICE "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." RAMBO
Scrim Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 The F-86F I'd say. Not an expert on either plane, but the Sabre does have a radar gun sight allowing it to engage the Hawk from a considerably longer distance with accuracy.
howie87 Posted May 13, 2014 Author Posted May 13, 2014 The Sabre is 30 years older, slightly heavier and has less thrust. But it has a higher top speed and service ceiling, more guns and radar targeting. The Hawk has a better thrust to weight ratio, is probably easier to fly and more nimble and superseded the 'Sabre killer' Folland Gnat. So, I think I'll take my chances in the Hawk (in the back seat, with my hands wrapped around the ejection lever).
lunaticfringe Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 The F-86F I'd say. Not an expert on either plane, but the Sabre does have a radar gun sight allowing it to engage the Hawk from a considerably longer distance with accuracy. Not really; that's more of a factor of harmonization and CEP at range. But if you really want to, you're trading a superior drag profile (even with the ADEN pod), superior maneuverability, and a 70+% thrust to weight advantage for a radar ranging set of Brownings? C'mon now; you're not going to get a chance to go guns on, let alone put that radar to use.
Grim_Smiles Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 While I love the Sabre far more than the Hawk, I'd have to say Hawk. Pitting a Korean war fighter against a modern aircraft (even a jet trainer) doesn't sound like a fair setup. Old equipment vs new equipment doesn't usually work out for the old. "Hurled headlong flaming from the ethereal sky; With hideous ruin and combustion down; To bottomless perdition, there to dwell; In adamantine chains and penal fire" (RIG info is outdated, will update at some point) i5 @3.7GHz (OC to 4.1), 16GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 970 4GB, TrackIR 5 & TrackClip Pro, TM Warthog HOTAS, VKB T-Rudder Mk.IV, Razer Blackshark Headset, Obutto Ozone
otto Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Hawk because of the ADEN cannon. I think i can use it like this: I think it's similar to the Gsh 301 .
Krebs20 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I'll vote for the F86. Your tactics will be the difference. Boom and zoom. I don't think the saber will last a minute anywhere but high altitude. The Hawk will be better overall. But I can play favorites right? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
outlawal2 Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Once both planes have been released we can find out for certain! "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." RAMBO
Scrim Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Not really; that's more of a factor of harmonization and CEP at range. But if you really want to, you're trading a superior drag profile (even with the ADEN pod), superior maneuverability, and a 70+% thrust to weight advantage for a radar ranging set of Brownings? C'mon now; you're not going to get a chance to go guns on, let alone put that radar to use. Well, I did say I'm not an expert. Either way, if we look at the skill statistics of the average Sabre pilot vs. the average Hawk training aircraft pilot, I still think the Sabre will win :P
Frostie Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Well, I did say I'm not an expert. Either way, if we look at the skill statistics of the average Sabre pilot vs. the average Hawk training aircraft pilot, I still think the Sabre will win :P Well, those 80+ year old former Sabre pilots might know what to do, but the old limbs don't function as quick as they used to. So I still vote for turkey shoot. :) "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
howie87 Posted May 13, 2014 Author Posted May 13, 2014 Surprisingly close in the poll... We shall see if it stays that way later in the year!
Winfield_Gold Posted May 14, 2014 Posted May 14, 2014 Well, those 80+ year old former Sabre pilots might know what to do, but the old limbs don't function as quick as they used to. So I still vote for turkey shoot. :) Just as I was about to make a comment on Chuck Yeager in a Sabre....
lunaticfringe Posted May 14, 2014 Posted May 14, 2014 Well, I did say I'm not an expert. Either way, if we look at the skill statistics of the average Sabre pilot vs. the average Hawk training aircraft pilot, I still think the Sabre will win :P By that argument, I'll stash a Red Arrows pilot in there.
lunaticfringe Posted May 14, 2014 Posted May 14, 2014 I'll vote for the F86. Your tactics will be the difference. Boom and zoom. I don't think the saber will last a minute anywhere but high altitude. The Sabre's RoC isn't better than the Hawk, nor does it have an excessively large difference in top speed; both are around .85-.9 Mach at altitude. While the Hawk's wing loading is higher by around 25lb/ft^2, the 70% margin in T:W offsets it. The Hawk can turn faster, at a higher rate, losing less energy. And it will outclimb the Sabre as well. Not to mention, the Sabre's critical Mach will come into play in the less than 1 nautical mile difference you have in operating height (around 5000'), meaning that you can't build an energy margin to make extension tactics actually work; you've got the brakes out to make sure you're not committing suicide in the dive, putting you right at the same speed said Hawk is level at. Meanwhile, you're fighting gravity to pull out of said dive. The only, and I mean only, thing a Sabre can do against a Hawk is pray he makes a mistake and gets slower than you, because that surrenders the drag negation of the T:W. Then you can use your slightly better radius performance (in that circumstance) to attempt a conversion. But he's holding all the cards to reacquire his energy state and get back to work on you.
Aginor Posted May 14, 2014 Posted May 14, 2014 The Hawk. I'm pretty sure about that. EDIT: Reasons as stated before by others. But I'm looking forward to test that. :) DCSW weapons cheat sheet speed cheat sheet
leafer Posted May 14, 2014 Posted May 14, 2014 No one here read Scream of Eagle by Robert K Wilcox? Right there in the 1st chapter is an old and rusty F86 repeatedly spanked 2 latest and greatest F4 Skyray and F8 Crusader in a 1v1 fight. Really good book. ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P
Aginor Posted May 14, 2014 Posted May 14, 2014 @leafer: Well, an experienced pilot and a forced style of combat (dogfight in this case) can do wonders. An I-16 can beat a P-51 in a dogfight, but that doesn't say that the I-16 is the better plane. DCSW weapons cheat sheet speed cheat sheet
leafer Posted May 14, 2014 Posted May 14, 2014 @leafer: Well, an experienced pilot Bingo. ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P
Ells228 Posted May 14, 2014 Posted May 14, 2014 The Hawk, cause I'm making it!!! Good enough reason I'd say ;) However good the airframe, I still think it's down to pilot skill and how he/she uses that airframe whilst not bleeding energy. Will make an interesting fight for sure and looking forward to testing the MiG-21 and Hawk doing exactly this next week :D
howie87 Posted May 14, 2014 Author Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) Haha, fair enough Ells! Also, if you had to fly the Sabre for a change you'd probably get strafed on the ramp while you were still reading the manual! MiG-21 vs Hawk will be interesting. Although I suppose the MiG would have the ability to extend at will... All these new jets are getting me excited! Edited May 14, 2014 by howie87
howie87 Posted May 14, 2014 Author Posted May 14, 2014 I'd bring some heaters. Heaters are for cheaters!
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