C-101CC Weapons

[Tango]

...so we can drop LGBs, but laser-guided Mavericks not? :huh:

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[Flagrum]

...so we can drop LGBs, but laser-guided Mavericks not? :huh:

 

Best regards,

Tango.

Not with the A-10C, yeah. I don't know what exactly was the deal behind all that, that ED must not allow the A-10C use the 65E. Maybe just some smallprint in their contract with the USAF. At least I can't think of any security related concerns - the function and the capabilities of the 65E are quite well known and documented, afaik.

 

But if you implement the AGM-65E in such a way, that the C-101 can use it, but the A-10C not ... I guess, that should be no problem then (imho!). But as I said, you probably want to double check with ED.

 

[Silver_Dragon]

The AGM-65E has deny by legal agreement with others A-10C capabilities. (into A-10C module only)

Edited June 12, 2014 by Silver_Dragon

[Tango]

Not with the A-10C, yeah. I don't know what exactly was the deal behind all that, that ED must not allow the A-10C use the 65E. Maybe just some smallprint in their contract with the USAF. At least I can't think of any security related concerns - the function and the capabilities of the 65E are quite well known and documented, afaik.

 

But if you implement the AGM-65E in such a way, that the C-101 can use it, but the A-10C not ... I guess, that should be no problem then (imho!). But as I said, you probably want to double check with ED.

 

Obviously I haven't tried to implement it yet, but if the code is in our module, then someone would have to reverse-engineer it to make it work with anything else, which will be expressly prohibited to do.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[Aginor]

Are you really really sure, Tango?

 

I'm pretty sure they do NOT use laser-guided Mavericks.

 

Everything I could find was that:

- Jordan: uses G

- Chile: uses F and G (both IR)

- Spain: uses D

 

Sources:

http://www.un-register.org/ReportingStatus/CountryDetail.aspx?Register_Id=1717

 

http://www.deagel.com/equipment/Anti-Armor-Weapons-and-Missiles/AGM-65-Maverick.htm

 

 

 

One of the pictures I posted earlier in the thread shows a Maverick in Chile. To me it looks like an F.

 

Compare it to here:

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-65.html

 

 

So I assume the following:

They use the good old optical Maverick, the G or F. They just display the center of the seeker head on the HUD as a cross, like in the A-10. If the Maverick seeker gets a lock, the pipper changes, and you fire it.

So actually you don't see the video signal, you just trust the seeker that it has locked on, and your HUD shows it (and where it locked to, based on IR contrast).

The disadvantage is shorter range. But you can use the Maverick this way. It is much easier to implement, because no screen is needed and you don't have to transmit the video signal to the plane. It works like an AIM-9 then.

Then also the statement above (Chile has bought F and G) makes sense I guess: IR seekers are the most reliable ones, especially if you use them without a screen (high contrast).

 

Btw: The Russians do it the same way. The SU-25A can carry multiple optically guided missiles, but it has no screen. It just shows you a targeting cross and you can lock on.

 

The coolest thing is, you don't even need a range indicator. If it locks on, it locks on. The range of the missile's motor exceeds the lock range of the seeker by several miles.

[Tango]

Well... good... because that just simplified the programming! :D

 

Why carry the laser designator then? It replaces the gun...

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[Aginor]

That's an interesting question. Three options come to mind:

 

1. Perhaps the laser designator isn't a laser designator but a laser range finder. That one could be useful for the CCIP and CCRP delivery of unguided bombs and rockets.

 

2. Or maybe it is something like the Pave Penny, a passive laser seeker so ground troops can guide the CAS plane to its target.

 

3. Or perhaps I am simply wrong and they really do use the laser guided Maverick. In that case targeting would still work the same as described above, except that you have to activate the laser (and have some indication in the cockpit for it), basically exactly like when you fire a KH-25ML flying the SU-25A.

 

I think I'd bet on 1 or 2. But I'll see if I can find out more.

[Aginor]

Oh, and another possibility, now that I read some more:

 

The CC might actually not be able to carry Mavericks at all. The ability of doing so is sometimes described as one of the major perks of the DD, which was never built.

In a way that would make sense, perhaps all those Mavericks which Chile bought were for their F-16 aircraft.

 

And that picture I posted? On a exhibition it seems, the weapons are probably mockups anyway. Nobody can check if they work. They wanted to sell the DD but didn't.

[Flagrum]

That's an interesting question. Three options come to mind:

 

1. Perhaps the laser designator isn't a laser designator but a laser range finder. That one could be useful for the CCIP and CCRP delivery of unguided bombs and rockets.

 

2. Or maybe it is something like the Pave Penny, a passive laser seeker so ground troops can guide the CAS plane to its target.

 

3. Or perhaps I am simply wrong and they really do use the laser guided Maverick. In that case targeting would still work the same as described above, except that you have to activate the laser (and have some indication in the cockpit for it), basically exactly like when you fire a KH-25ML flying the SU-25A.

 

I think I'd bet on 1 or 2. But I'll see if I can find out more.

4. It is used to desginate laser guided bombs. From what I gathered so far, the BR-250 originates from the american Mk-80 series bombs, i.e. is very similar to a Mk-82. Now we could speculate(!) that the BR-250 could be equipped with the Paveway guidance kit...

[Tango]

Maybe the Chilean A-36/T-36 Halcón could carry it?

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[Aginor]

Sometimes it is quite hard to distinguish between the CC and the A-36, I don't have a clue...

Except the word Laser Designator I know nothing about it.

 

EDIT: At the moment I can't find any sources that any of the C-101CC's users (Chile, Honduras or Jordan) have used laser guided bombs of any type yet. Anyone else got some?

Edited June 12, 2014 by Aginor

[Tango]

Maybe they never got past the experimental stage?

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[Aginor]

I think so.

Those things are expensive, and for each of those countries there are good reasons not to buy such weapons (price, questionable usefulness, no wars to fight, and in case of Jordan also to not annoy the Israelis). The only source I could find was some report about some Jordanian officials checking out a Pakistani-built LGB, but nothing more.

 

Next I will check if I can find cockpit shots of those versions to see if we can spot differences to the unarmed C-101 versions, maybe we can find hints on how the weapons could be used there.

[Aginor]

Ok, more, since I haven't seen that info here yet:

C-101CC Aviojet : This is the dedicated light attack development of the CASA C-101 Aviojet trainer, and first flew in November 1983 with a powerplant of one TFE731-5-1J turbofan for additional performance with an increased underwing weapon load used with the improved fire-control system that adds a Ferranti HUD and weapon-aiming computer system to the basic fit of the trainer models. Chile operates the C-101CC-02 subvariant in a form built under license as the ENAER A-36 Halcón (kestrel) that is qualified for the maritime attack role with a pair of BAe Sea Eagle missiles, while Jordan flies the C-101CC-04 subvariant.

 

C-101DD Aviojet : A further enhanced trainer and attack model, this was first flown in May 1985 with a powerplant of one TFE731-5-1J turbofan and the Ferranti Flexible Avionics System for Training And Combat system (comprising the FD4503 HUD and weapon-aiming computer, and the FIN1100 attitude, heading and navigation system) in a revised cockpit with HOTAS controls; other equipment items are the General Instruments ALR-66 RWR and Vinten Vicon 78 chaff/flare dispenser.

 

The type is generally similar to the C-101CC except in details such as its normal take-off weight of 11,089 lb (5030 kg), maximum take-off weight of 13,889 lb (6300 kg), maximum level speed 'clean' of 450 kt (518 mph; 834 km/h) at 15,000 ft (4575 m) with MPR thrust declining to 435 kt (501 mph; 806 km) at 20,000 ft (6095 m), radius of 280 nm (322 miles; 519 km) on a lo-lo-lo interdiction mission with cannon pack and four 551 lb (250 kg) bombs, or 200 nm (230 miles; 370 km) on a lo-lo-lo close support mission with cannon pack and four rocket launchers for a 50-minute loiter, or 170 nm (196 miles; 315 km) on a lo-lo-lo close support mission with cannon pack, four rocket launchers and two 276 lb (125 kg) bombs for a 30-minute loiter, or 325 nm (374 miles; 602 km) on an attack mission with cannon pack and two AGM-65 Maverick ASMs, or 200 nm (230 miles; 370 km) on an armed patrol with gun pack and a loiter of 3 hours 30 minutes, maximum rate of climb at sea level of 4,900 ft (1494 m) per minute at normal thrust or 6,100 ft (1859 m) per minute at MPR thrust, climb to 25,000 ft (7620 m) in 6 minutes 30 seconds, and service ceiling of 42,000 ft (12800 m). The C-101DD has yet to secure an order.

source: some CD-ROM about Warplanes from 1994

 

 

So to me it looks like only the DD had Mavericks. That's a pity.

 

 

And here's the cockpit of a CC, it seems:

http://fotos.miarroba.es/fo/7ec2/274DAE4C8D294D3A5B8B264D3A5B7F.jpg

 

EDIT:

Holy ****, it is really hard to find pictures of those cockpits on the web...

Edited June 13, 2014 by Aginor

[Sceptre]

Awesome! A trainer, but with the option to blow stuff up :pilotfly:

[Aginor]

Well, not exactly the same plane, but yes.

Pretty much like the Hawk, which is also armed (even the same version there, while the C-101 has different versions, some armed, some not).

[lmp]

The SU-25A can carry multiple optically guided missiles, but it has no screen.

 

Such as?

 

Cause the Kh-25ML, Kh-29L, S-25L are all laser guided.

[Aginor]

KH-25 MT, KH25-MTP, KH-29T and KH-59

IIRC. can't check it right now.

[lmp]

AFAIK none of these can be fired by the Su-25.

[Aginor]

Not trying to be an ass, just curious: What are your sources? I found none that specifically state which versions of those missiles are used by which planes, in most cases it was just "SU-25", which could mean A or T or whatever else exists. :D

 

I admit I'm not sure myself, I'm no expert for the SU-25 operational history, especially about all the weapon subvariants.

 

Btw, as noted above, I think this may even be meaningless, since the info from all sources available to me at the moment seems to imply that the C-101CC may actually NOT be able to use Mavericks.

So yeah, I might be wrong and there isn't an aircraft that uses TV-guided missiles without a monitor. It would still be possible, although very suboptimal of course.

That in turn would imply that the C-101DD would have had a TV monitor or an MFD. And that brings back my other question: Are there any pictures of the cockpit? There was at least one prototype flying in 1985 or so...

[lmp]

Not trying to be an ass, just curious: What are your sources? I found none that specifically state which versions of those missiles are used by which planes, in most cases it was just "SU-25", which could mean A or T or whatever else exists. :D

 

For a start, there's the English Wikipedia entry for Kh-29. The source given is a Rosoboronexport catalogue (which is no longer available under the given link, but I have it and can confirm it's quoted correctly). If that's not a good enough source for you, I know that only the latest Su-22M4s with the IT-23 screen in the cockpit could utilize the Kh-29T. Earlier Su-22M4s with the Klen-54 rangefinder and Su-22M3s with the Klen-PS unit (same as on the Su-25) could only employ the laser guided S-25L, Kh-25ML and Kh-29L. I could provide a couple of sources for that, but they'd all be in Polish.

[Tango]

Interesting discussion!

 

Getting back to the -101 for a moment, it says this about the DD model:

 

other equipment items are the General Instruments ALR-66 RWR and Vinten Vicon 78 chaff/flare dispenser.

...so I'm guessing these can be taken off the list of CC supported equipment.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[Aginor]

For a start, there's the English Wikipedia entry for Kh-29. The source given is a Rosoboronexport catalogue (which is no longer available under the given link, but I have it and can confirm it's quoted correctly). If that's not a good enough source for you, I know that only the latest Su-22M4s with the IT-23 screen in the cockpit could utilize the Kh-29T. Earlier Su-22M4s with the Klen-54 rangefinder and Su-22M3s with the Klen-PS unit (same as on the Su-25) could only employ the laser guided S-25L, Kh-25ML and Kh-29L. I could provide a couple of sources for that, but they'd all be in Polish.

 

Those are more than sufficient, thanks a lot! :)

 

 

 

@Tango: I think so, but maybe there are other chaff/flare dispensers available for the CC, I guess we will have to search a bit more to confirm that.

[Zakatak]

I hadn't heard of a C-101 prior to this module being announced, but I'm really interested now! Looks like we'll have plenty of mission variety with this bird.

[NineLine]

I didnt know much about this bird, but more I learn the more it interests me... and it helps it can throw Mavs and bombs at stuff :)