Defensive missiles???

[rajdary]

Hi, i was just curious about something, i was reading the news about how Israel uses a defensive system which consists of missiles which are used to shoot down or intercept enemy missiles. I was wondering, isnt there something similar for military aircrafts?? wouldnt that be an excellent solution against SAMs and others??

Edited July 11, 2014 by rajdary

[outlawal2]

The system that you are referring to is a modified Patriot SAM system. Israel bought (10 I believe) Patriot missile batteries and then have modified them for their own specific missile threats... As I understand it, they have made extensive software updates to the system to account for their specific threats and IIRC have linked them together..

 

So none of this would be beneficial to airplane use...

[topol-m]

If you're gonna carry point defense missiles, that would reduce the payload that you'd use to attack your enemy. What several companies are working on right now is point defense lasers. This technology gets closer and closer to its implementation on aircraft. Laser output increases constantly while their energy consumption and size lowers. Currently different versions are being tested, and in the upcoming years laser CIWS will be deployed on ships and land vehicles. I'd guess that shortly after they would be used on military aircraft as well. But to be effective it should be made really small and with low consumption to be able to mount it on an F-35 or a B-1B for instance, cause trailing a laser-equipped Boeing 747 behind your F-35s on every mission ain't the best idea.

[rajdary]

The system that you are referring to is a modified Patriot SAM system. Israel bought (10 I believe) Patriot missile batteries and then have modified them for their own specific missile threats... As I understand it, they have made extensive software updates to the system to account for their specific threats and IIRC have linked them together..

 

So none of this would be beneficial to airplane use...

 

But i was thinking more like small defensive AIM-9 Sidewinders pointing backwards.

What does IIRC stand for?

thanks

[Silver_Dragon]

The Iron Dome System has similar to the Phitom 5 in long.

 

The Black Fins missile on the pic (left to Right: Phitom 5, Iron Dome missile (Tamil), Derby, Derby with Boster. Barak-8 and David Sling System)

 

[159th_Viper]

But i was thinking more like small defensive AIM-9 Sidewinders pointing backwards.

 

The problem is relatively simple:

 

How is the defensive sidewinder/whatever other missile going to know what missile is incoming and more importantly, where the incoming missile is in order to intercept and destroy?

 

Somehow I reckon tucking tail between legs and running from the incoming death-stick is infinitely preferable than attempting to swat it out of the sky with one of your own firecrackers :D

[Jona33]

There was another thread about this recently, search for "rearward firing missiles"

 

IIRC means If I Remember Correctly.

[outlawal2]

There was another thread about this recently, search for "rearward firing missiles"

 

IIRC means If I Remember Correctly.

 

Yes IIRC means "If I remember Correctly"

Sorry I didn't get back to you on that...

 

WORK got in the way!

[Pikey]

I think the only way we can measure the possibility of your suggestion is to look at the real world figures and success rate of a dedicated missile defence battery. Add the complexity of the launching platform moving at high speed and the target not flying a predictable path due the aforementioned. Then lets look at how the technology has come on since the Gulf and draw some very rough conclusions.

 

I'm going out on a limb that even with a very expensive missile that might do that it's not going to have a 100% success rate. Add the doctrine of firing multiple SAMs at the target and you have a low probability of survival for very great payload cost.

 

You can follow an interesting discussion on the hit probability on SCUD's during the Gulf wars, I know it's wikipedia but we are making this up as we go so there's little science to go on :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot

 

It's enough to make the idea very unappealing when faced with a death sentence.

[Isegrim]

Hi, i was just curious about something, i was reading the news about how Israel uses a defensive system which consists of missiles which are used to shoot down or intercept enemy missiles. I was wondering, isnt there something similar for military aircrafts?? wouldnt that be an excellent solution against SAMs and others??

 

IRIS-T is capable of that.

[GGTharos]

No, it is a very poor solution. The vast majority of missile intercept systems are as follows, in two very broad categories:

 

RPG-interceptors

BM interceptors

 

RPG-interceptors must react very, very quickly and they shoot down the missile very close to its target, usually using some form of explosive or a shotgun type round etc.

 

BM interceptors are specialized missiles with particular flight profiles, fuze settings and sensors that allow them to detect, intercept and destroy a fast ballistic missile.

 

 

BM interceptors typically have tens of seconds, if not more, to acquire and track and destroy a target.

 

 

You don't get this in an aircraft. You're not going to know an MRM is coming, and an SRM won't take much longer than 5 sec to reach you. In that sort of environment, you simply don't have time to acquire the target missile and respond with your own.

 

 

There is only one system that can do SOMETHING like that, and that is the HARM - the keep in mind that HARM attacks the launcher radar, not the incoming SAM. The aircraft that launched the HARM still has to properly defend against it. But the last detail here is that HARM can actually launch against the SAM radar before it even launches the missile: The SAM must lock its radar onto the aircraft before launching.

 

Generally speaking, rear-firing missiles have been tried and rejected. They strip you of useful forward-firing payload, and if you need rear-firing missiles, your tactics, or your planes suck, and those missiles wouldn't have saved you anyway.

 

Hi, i was just curious about something, i was reading the news about how Israel uses a defensive system which consists of missiles which are used to shoot down or intercept enemy missiles. I was wondering, isnt there something similar for military aircrafts?? wouldnt that be an excellent solution against SAMs and others??

Edited July 11, 2014 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

I find that unlikely. Even if the missile is physically capable of tracking an incoming missile, you're not likely to ever get it off the rail fast enough. And that's assuming the missile can hit-to-kill another missile, OR that the fuze is properly set up to deal with such a small target.

 

IRIS-T is capable of that.

[Isegrim]

I find that unlikely. Even if the missile is physically capable of tracking an incoming missile, you're not likely to ever get it off the rail fast enough. And that's assuming the missile can hit-to-kill another missile, OR that the fuze is properly set up to deal with such a small target.

 

http://www.diehl.com/en/diehl-defence/products/guided-missiles/iris-t-guided-missile-family/iris-t.html

 

 

Its been leaded at first by the PRAETORIAN System of the Typhoon. The PREATORIAN system decides which Counteractivity is best first (for sure on very close distance it will not select the IRIS-T)

If it decides to use a IRIS-T and the Thread is around 6 o.clock Position it will lead the missile first via DATALINK and lock the Target of the missile later to the IRIS-T (Lock after launch).

 

Its not made to intercept AIM-9 like missiles but AMRAAMs or russian equivalents can be done.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Isegrim

[GGTharos]

I've seen the brochure too. What about it?

[Isegrim]

I've seen the brochure too. What about it?

 

*IRIS-T's exceptional precision in combination with a radar proximity fuze also enable the missile to intercept enemy missiles.*

 

Did you miss that one?

 

If you dont believe i can go on with links?!?

[GGTharos]

Did you miss what I wrote? Do you see anyone claiming they have an anti-missile tactic with IRIS-T?

 

Like I said, even IF the missile is technically capable, there are a whole bunch of reasons why you won't use it that way. It isn't the first missile technically capable of intercepting another missile and it won't be the last.

 

Did you miss that one?

 

If you dont believe i can go on with links?!?

[Isegrim]

POINT1:Like I said, even IF the missile is technically capable, there are a whole bunch of reasons why you won't use it that way. POINT2:It isn't the first missile technically capable of intercepting another missile and it won't be the last.

 

Point1:

Thats up on situation and its for sure not first choice.

 

Point2:

Not the last for sure.

But now i want to read something. Can you be more correct which one was first?

 

EDIT: Hey no offence i just hope to learn something i propably dont know about.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Isegrim

[VTJS17_Fire]

What several companies are working on right now is point defense lasers. This technology gets closer and closer to its implementation on aircraft.

 

The NATO E-3A has such an laser already onboard. It's their defensive aid for take-off and landings, which should protect them at a missile launch.

 

In contrast to DCS, the real E-3A doesn't have Chaff or Flares for self defence. :music_whistling:

 

 

regards,

Fire

[NineLine]

Defensive laser systems.... except they are a little big right now... but hey... remember how big computers were.

[Isegrim]

Isnt the KA-52 fitted with such a system??

 

 

I cant read russian but it looked possible for me that the first Part described in this video is a IR-Laser emitter (at 1:17).

Edited July 11, 2014 by Isegrim

[ShuRugal]

While PD missiles might be impractical, what about mounting a system like the Iron Fist APS on an aircraft? It might not be practical on a small fighter, but on larger aircraft like transports and bombers it could be very effective.

[rajdary]

Its interesting, thanks all for your comments

[Isegrim]

While PD missiles might be impractical, what about mounting a system like the Iron Fist APS on an aircraft? It might not be practical on a small fighter, but on larger aircraft like transports and bombers it could be very effective.

 

Interesting.

[GGTharos]

AAMs can detonate before something like Iron Fist is even set to fire. In addition, the aircraft itself presents additional challenges by being itself a fairly rapidly moving object. My guess is that this is why such systems are not mounted on aircraft.

 

While PD missiles might be impractical, what about mounting a system like the Iron Fist APS on an aircraft? It might not be practical on a small fighter, but on larger aircraft like transports and bombers it could be very effective.

[Isegrim]

AAMs can detonate before something like Iron Fist is even set to fire. In addition, the aircraft itself presents additional challenges by being itself a fairly rapidly moving object. My guess is that this is why such systems are not mounted on aircraft.

 

 

I think that second point will break the Aircraft usage.