Radiator Flaps

[Yo-Yo]

I highly doubt it is in the "customer version". Flew it yesterday, wanted to check the radiator flaps and shut them where I thought they should open themselves not to get over a certain temperature. I was just flying at 2400rpm and the engine blew in a matter of seconds due to the extremey quickly rising temps. And there would be no reason to set a desired temp that high the engine can't withstand for like 20-30 seconds. So definately something's broken here.

 

Possibly, you misunderstand the way they work. You can not adjust the temperature if it's out of the range 90-100C, because i's the range of full automatic authority. For example, if you manually open the flaps and the temperature went below 90C, you override full authority of the automatic controlling.

[kubanloewe]

anyway, i open it from startup 7-8sec. and can fly, climb with MW50 until its empty :D same with P51; run her in automatic flaps and wep about half an hour, looking at temp and perhaps climbing more flat to keep speed over 200mph. see absolutely no realism in all that !

[gavagai]

Possibly, you misunderstand the way they work. You can not adjust the temperature if it's out of the range 90-100C, because i's the range of full automatic authority. For example, if you manually open the flaps and the temperature went below 90C, you override full authority of the automatic controlling.

 

Sorry, but something seems lost in the English.

 

You can not adjust the temperature if it's out of the range 90-100C, because i's the range of full automatic authority.

 

To me this implies that the pilot is unable to manually adjust the temperature if the temperature is greater than 100C or less than 90C, and that is false. I think you mean that the pilot should not manually adjust the temperature outside of 90-100C if he wants continued automatic control of the radiator flaps.

 

Is this right?

 

Yoyo, I do appreciate your taking the time to explain this stuff to us!

[Yo-Yo]

The automatic driver, as it is described in the manual, fully opens and close the flaps in the certain range of temperatures (as far as I remember 90-100 or 110C, I have no manual now to recall). It means that it is a regulator of static class.

This kind of regulator never maintain the output parameter exactly equal to required, for example, if you set 95C as a target and dive at idle the flaps must be almost closed - the temperature of the coolant then must be about 90C (low limit). And vica versa - if the plane is climbing at full power and low speed the flaps must be fully open - and it corresponds to high temperature limit.

 

It is exactly how the static regulator works. An only way to help this kind of regulator is to shift the required value using apriory known information or adding a bias.

By the way, that's why the collective in Ka-50 and Mi-8 is linked not only to blades but to the engine providing rotor rpm setting bias.

In Dora this bias can change required and automatically mantained temperature value and (if the bias is high enough) override automatic closing or opening flaps.

[Yo-Yo]

S

 

To me this implies that the pilot is unable to manually adjust the temperature if the temperature is greater than 100C or less than 90C, and that is false. I think you mean that the pilot should not manually adjust the temperature outside of 90-100C if he wants continued automatic control of the radiator flaps.

 

Is this right?

 

Yoyo, I do appreciate your taking the time to explain this stuff to us!

 

No, I mean the first statement.

[gavagai]

Ok, I stand corrected then! I did read the manual but perhaps not carefully enough. I will have another look. Thank you!

 

This is what the manual says:

 

The coolant system attempts to operate at the temperatures about 100 C at all altitudes. A built-in electric temperature sensor between the engine and the radiator is used to control the temperature.

Proper pressure is required in the cooling system to prevent unwanted vapor formation. Any steam that may occur is separated in the Vapor Air Separator of the coolant pump and then sent to the secondary system coolant tank where it is condensed.

However, if the boiling limit in the coolant tank is exceeded the pressure begins to rise. Therefore, the pressure and temperature gauges should be watched at all times to avoid overheating and possible engine damage.

 

To avoid excessive pressure the cooling system has a pressure-controlled pressure regulating valve which also performs the task of maintaining pressure at greater altitudes via the evaporation of the coolant in the coolant tank.

 

No explanation of how manual adjustments might interfere with the automatic system.

Edited November 2, 2014 by gavagai
manual

[Yo-Yo]

Ok, I stand corrected then! I did read the manual but perhaps not carefully enough. I will have another look. Thank you!

 

This is what the manual says:

 

 

 

No explanation of how manual adjustments might interfere with the automatic system.

 

Ohh... You have to dig throughout several original manuals including Lehrmittel to complete this puzzle. :)

[OutOnTheOP]

anyway, i open it from startup 7-8sec. and can fly, climb with MW50 until its empty :D same with P51; run her in automatic flaps and wep about half an hour, looking at temp and perhaps climbing more flat to keep speed over 200mph. see absolutely no realism in all that !

 

Why not? Before WEP engine ratings were permitted in allied fighters, they had to run at that WEP setting for SEVEN HOURS STRAIGHT without failure on a test bench. As long as you keep the temperatures down, the engine will put out that power just fine. Probably need to be scrapped once you get it home, but it'll do it.

 

Also, compared to the Dora, the Mustang seems to me to have a friggin' huge water radiator. As to the Dora, MW50 may add a bit of power, but just as important is the ability of the methanol-water mixture to cool the engine. Try doing that same climb with full throttle WITHOUT MW50, and you're much more likely to blow an engine.

[Kodoss]

@ YoYo

 

From the Jumo 213 E-1 engine (Übersichtsmappe Jumo 213 - 1944)

overview

 

water flow

 

hydraulic oil flow

 

Informations for the 1150mm radiator (Einheitskühler) for the E-1 engine (from the same manual)

Looks more like a spring steel wire to me.

 

From the Fw 190 D-9 spare parts list

Looks more like a spring steel wire to me, bowden cable wouldn't need the tube part on the other side of the housing (21).

 

I hope that helps a little.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Kodoss

[kubanloewe]

Kodoss thx for that; very nice to see how simple and compact they implement a intercooler. did´nt know the Jumo213 had one, nice. the cooler liquid temps can be 100°C at normal flight, 110°C at climbing and up to 130°C at taxiing/take off ! (but how long before the overpressure valve opens and liquid flow out ?) i see this happen live 2005 when BF109G "rote 7" was taxiing the whole runway 2 times after landing and a massive flow of hot water/vapour flow over the engine and ran onto the ground.....they had to fill in about 5-10ltr after cooling down. i try to interpret how i put all this in my thought´s with my limited english. i see a controller which acts as a servo for a double acting hydr. cylinder direct operating the cooler flaps. this controller gets his input (set point) from Nr11 (kapillaranschluß für Temperaturregler) from upstream engine right side; left engine side upstream Nr10 goes to the gauge in cockpit. Now, i know these "kapillarrohrfühler" are filled with a fluid (perhaps PEG). This fluid expand and depending on the amount it could regulat a valve. We know this for boiler heating in our households or whatever. In the Dora´s case this "Fühler" regulate a hydraulic valve which let the hydraulic oil go in one or the other side of the double acting cylinder, clinder stem is pulled in flaps open or stem out close the flaps. They do this because the force of the kapillarfühler isn´t enough for the flaps and another reason could be; if using hydraulic you can put in some other influence as you wish like throttles or perhaps this hand operated override wheel. The regulating valve must have a spring which force it to back position where the hydraulic oil normally flow in that piston (cylinder) chamber which closes the flaps. If engine liquid reach set point of "Kapillarrohrfühler" it´s intern Polyethylenglycol moves the regulating valve forward and oil flow in the other chamber of the cylinder; flaps begin to open. The set point seems to be fix (90-100°C) unlike our´s which we use in our boiler heating valve regulating today where we load a spring force by a handwheel. Handwheel and spring! Now, that´s perhaps this thing in the cockpit which the pilot could use to "influence" or perhaps damping the 2point on-off regulating for more constant temperatur and less overswing. What i mean are some extrem conditions like -20°C outside or 40°C, the regulating is set for 26°C as mentioned. Now these ranges did impact the consistant regulating in a way that the system began to "pump"; cooler flaps open....extrem cold air flow lets liquid fast dooling down...Kapillarrohrfühler measures to cold and let flaps close....liquid temp rises and flaps open again...and so on ! That´s perhaps funny to look from outside the plane but not very smart. With the Handwheel "perhaps!" the pilot or better the groundcrew did this before they can damp this "pumping" by loading the spring of the regulating valve (servo). So it needs more force from the Kapillarrohrfühler to open the flaps. With other words; the same set point let follow a less open flap. Or if not this way than perhaps the acting of this handwheel could be to pull direct the flaps open or close instead to influence the servovalve position. But to my knowledge the effect would be the same with the advantage to open and close flaps without having oil pressure ! Perhaps this is more likely. The "Telekinzug" is like a Bowden but in a unflexible tube. what we need is a logic plan.

Edited November 8, 2014 by kubanloewe

[Bucic]

ED-provided manuals for WW2 birds are lackluster sometimes but this has to be the worst case I have ever seen. Such a simple system and no information on it in the manual, even in the latest version of it. I have wasted an hour on this already and I still don't know how it works, from the pilot's perspective. Could anyone share the forbidden knowledge with me in a simple English sentence or IF-THEN convention?

 

As a a virtual pilot the very first thing I would like to know after enforcing a manual setting is: how do I revert to automatic operation? The taxiing procedure says I set it to manual full open and the subsequent procedure do not address that.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Bucic

[Crumpp]

Dora has no thermostat if we consider this term for the automatic valve closing radiator for coolant and bypasing it directly to the engine. Dora has thermostatic controlled flaps. I think that now we have modelled this system as it really is. As an engineer I can say that it is even more elegant than Mustang has, for example.

THe Mustang has so called relay type system and the actual coolant can have any temperature within fixed range depending on the conditiions. Even for the same conditions the temperature can be different.

 

Dora has analogue type static regulator. This type of regulator requires output parameter (coolant temparature) changing to control flaps position but manual correction allows to set any desired temperature within the certain working range.

If this manual input override this range, flaps, in fact, become manual controlled.

 

Yo-Yo,

 

Can you tell me the logic and how it works at start up in the Dora.

 

It seems the start up instructions require the pilot to open the gills fully.

 

Is the thermostatic regulator logic being over-ridden right from the beginning in DCS?

 

When does it pick up the automatic function after start?

[Bucic]

And BTW, I've just fired up a cold start mission and the very first thing I did was actuating the knob. The radiator flapes opened and closed fully and very fast. It's clearly a mechanical control. At least under these conditions.

[Luzifer]

What is your reason for even wanting to control the radiators? The 100°C setting should be fine.

 

I think there is still the issue that the handle allows manual control of the flaps which is not the real function from what I've read around here. That's why there is no normal way to revert to automatic control: the real 190 doesn't have manual control. The knob only changed the temperature target for the automatics.

[Bucic]

What is your reason for even wanting to control the radiators? The 100°C setting should be fine.

 

I think there is still the issue that the handle allows manual control of the flaps which is not the real function from what I've read around here. That's why there is no normal way to revert to automatic control: the real 190 doesn't have manual control. The knob only changed the temperature target for the automatics.

If you are referring to me - I'm told by one procedure to set them manually open for taxiing and there is no mention about them after that. Also, I've just took off, started a 5 second climb at ~3200 RPM, pressed LCtrl+A once or zweiss for several seconds and the engine died in under 30 seconds.

dora_to_manual_radflaps_deadengine2.trk

[Crumpp]

If you are referring to me - I'm told by one procedure to set them manually open for taxiing and there is no mention about them after that. Also, I've just took off, started a 5 second climb at ~3200 RPM, pressed LCtrl+A once or zweiss for several seconds and the engine died in under 30 seconds.

 

I have the exact same thing happen. The tutorial and the manual say to open the cowl flaps all the way. I also keep them fully open in a climb.

 

They just do not seem to have any automatic function one you have manually opened them for take off.

[Bucic]

I have the exact same thing happen. The tutorial and the manual say to open the cowl flaps all the way. I also keep them fully open in a climb.

 

They just do not seem to have any automatic function one you have manually opened them for take off.

Also if you hold the key combination and the knob reaches the stop it keeps turning slowly.

[Crumpp]

Also if you hold the key combination and the knob reaches the stop it keeps turning slowly.

 

Interesting.

 

I bound the key to my throttle and will check if it stops.

[Yo-Yo]

The D9 flaps are controlled with a system that is way different from P-51 and Me-109. P-51 and -109 have switch (relay) automatics with hysteresis and dead zone, but -109 has more fast actators.

D9 has linear static regulator with bias input. So, if you change this bias in narrow range the coolant temperature is maintained at desired level (if the radiator can do it using terminal flaps positions!). For a wider range the flaps will be fully closed or opened.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Yo-Yo

[Bucic]

The D9 flaps are controlled with a system that is way different from P-51 and Me-109. P-51 and -109 have switch (relay) automatics with hysteresis and dead zone, but -109 has more fast actators.

D9 has linear static regulator with bias input. So, if you change this bias in narrow range the coolant temperature is maintained at desired level (if the radiator can do it using terminal flaps positions!). For a wider range the flaps will be fully closed or opened.

Yes, you've mentioned it in the other thread already but to me this is still more along the lines of trivia, however interesting. But still far from pilot -usable information.

D9 has linear static regulator with bias input.

Could you provide the formula describing it? So we could see what bias value makes the system unable to provide the intended automatic control within limits. Or better yet, at least two example cases for two characteristic points of operation of the system, with specific values.

 

In the end It all boils down to: we do not have the minimum information needed to safely operate the system.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Bucic

[Yo-Yo]

Yes, you've mentioned it in the other thread already but to me this is still more along the lines of trivia, however interesting. But still far from pilot -usable information.

 

Could you provide the formula describing it? So we could see what bias value makes the system unable to provide the intended automatic control within limits. Or better yet, at least two example cases for two characteristic points of operation of the system, with specific values.

 

In the end It all boils down to: we do not have the minimum information needed to safely operate the system.

 

All numbers were in this thread, one can find them. There are two temperatures for full close and open positions. Put a straight line between and two straight horisontal lines at full open and full close - and this is a formula... Adding a bias you simply move this two points right or left (considering the horz axis as temperature and the vertical - as flaps position) But you have not to control the system - any your input generally won't enhance its work... In RL, Erich told us, he never used the knob.

[Bucic]

All numbers were in this thread, one can find them. There are two temperatures for full close and open positions. Put a straight line between and two straight horisontal lines at full open and full close - and this is a formula... Adding a bias you simply move this two points right or left (considering the horz axis as temperature and the vertical - as flaps position) But you have not to control the system - any your input generally won't enhance its work... In RL, Erich told us, he never used the knob.

Ok, I'm going to take a look again at the other thread and plot the line.

 

That's exactly why I'm so irked! :) I do not want to use the knob but the manual fails to provide the necessary information.

[Bucic]

I'm currently uploading video recordings of the following tracks:

dora_to_manual_radflaps_knobcreepingLR.trk

dora_to_manual_radflaps_deadengine2.trk

dora_to_manual_radflaps_deadengine.trk

http://1drv.ms/1QGKh4J

 

There are going to be two videos per track - internal and external view.

Read the video descriptions for more details.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/Tome4kkkk/videos

Edited November 24, 2015 by Bucic

[Spectrum Legacy]

After not flying Dora for a while and giving it a spin after the last update, I've noticed that one radiator flap on the right side, third from top (in front of the exhaust) doesn't open. I've checked your video Bucic and it same for you as well.

I see some pictures with the same flap remaining static on the real thing, so it might be a feature which I never noticed before :D Amazing detail, as always...

Edit2: My understanding would be that it is so to limit the warm air from the radiator entering the engine intake nozzle!

 

 

On the side note, I remember when the radiator knob/system changed a while ago to the current way of operation, but the manual and training doesn't reflect the change I think. I'll have to double check the current version, but if it is so, that might be causing the confusion regarding the radiator flaps... I'm trying not to touch the knob as well if I can help it.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Spectrum Legacy
Attachment

[Bucic]

to limit the warm air from the radiator entering the engine intake nozzle!

Correct.