Radiator Flaps

[Fox One]

D-9 cockpit pictures from Dietmar Hermann’s Focke-Wulf Fw 190 "Long Nose” book. On the label above radiator flaps control wheel it is visible “Auf” on the left and “Zu” on the right. In DCS it’s the other way around.

[jackdaw]

if there is a wheel to control the radiator cowl flaps manually should we be able to use an axis as well as buttons.

same as range to target this has an axis or buttons to control it.

[NineLine]

I have asked for an axis assignment, no idea if or when it might happen.

[jackdaw]

i hope they do

[NineLine]

Well you arent supposed to operate them a lot manually, but I agree, it should be able to be assigned to an axis...

[Yo-Yo]

I was trying to combine all information about this system... and now, I think, I understood the system. The drawings, descriptions and some directions from the manual had seemed to be out of a system but later the only one simple and logic based answer came.

 

The manual actuator linkage to the flaps has in series a thermo actuator having full authority for the flaps within 10 degrees centigrade range. Or this linkage can be considered as an origin point for the thermo actuator.

As this linkage and in-cockpit knob is AUTO or ZERO position, the actuator moves the flaps maintaining the temperature within 90-100C range. The actual flaps position will depend on the engine power, speed, altitude, etc.

This is a typical static regulator and its output parameter (coolant temperature) depends on the input parameters and is not constant.

For example, we have the certain flaps position for the certain power and speed. If we increase the power, increased coolant heating will open flaps but the new balance will be established at the higher coolant temperature (because any crtain flaps opening is proprtional to the temperature).

The same effect will be if we just shift the origin point with the knob. So this knob can change the desired coolant temperature as it's turned in small range and then even override the automatics opening and closing the flaps regardless of the coolant temperature.

So, we reworked this system for Dora in this way now.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Yo-Yo

[NineLine]

Excellent, thanks for the info! (tell whomever to add axis control for the "knob") :D

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Excellent, thanks for the info! (tell whomever to add axis control for the "knob") :D

 

So, it'll come with the next update?

 

Thx Yo-Yo!

[Fox One]

Below is a picture of the unrestored cockpit of Ta-152H. On the label above radiator flaps control wheel (Kühlerklappen) there is Auf on left, Zu on the right and in the middle Automatik. In Ta-152H pilot notes they say before takeoff the pilot should put radiator control in position 100°C. I can only assume the Automatik mid position is the 100°C position they mention in pilot’s notes.

 

In Jerry Crandall’s Fw 190 Dora book, vol 2 page 15 they quote some flight test documents for D-11, 12, 13 and somewhere they mention for the climb performance coolant datum 100°. I believe the radiator flaps control and the way the system works in Dora is similar with Ta-152H, however I’m not 100% sure yet.

 

Here you can see the label for radiator flaps control wheel for D-9: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2168441&postcount=26

The “Automatik” position isn’t marked. However, that does not necessarily contradicts my theory above that D-9 radiator flaps control is similar with Ta-152H. The mid position on D-9’s label above the control could simply be unmarked.

 

The mid Automatik position on Ta-152H implies that the control wheel must have a tic mark on it and it can’t be rotated left or right more than one full turn. Otherwise the central “Automatik” position wouldn’t make any sense.

 

But let’s ignore all possible similarity with Ta-152H. The radiator flaps control as it is now in DCS Dora – you need to turn, turn, turn it for a long time. I might be wrong, but I find this unlikely to be realistic. I say that mostly because the control is not placed in an easily accessible location. If there was really necessary to turn it like that for a long time, they would have made the plane half a kilogram heavier and placed the control within easy reach.

[Yo-Yo]

THis control was so necessary that the pilot did not use it at all.

[Kodoss]

The NASM has a microfilm in their archives. See page 29 of this PDF-file: http://www.lwag.org/reference/rlnasmml001.PDF

 

"Roll 8157: Bokelmann 1958 Sollwert-Fernverstellung des VDM-Temperaturregler, Mai 1944"

 

Could be the document that you need.

[Yo-Yo]

The NASM has a microfilm in their archives. See page 29 of this PDF-file: http://www.lwag.org/reference/rlnasmml001.PDF

 

"Roll 8157: Bokelmann 1958 Sollwert-Fernverstellung des VDM-Temperaturregler, Mai 1944"

 

Could be the document that you need.

 

THank you very much, will try to get it.

[Kodoss]

Also interesting is the spare parts list "Fw 190 D ETL Teil 07 Triebwerksanlage"

 

 

Under "Ort.Nr 23" you find "Skalenscheibe" (dial, scale disc).

Which means you can adjust the temperature or angle within certain limits with the handwheel, but since I haven't the drawing or a picture of the scale it's all guessing.

 

The only thing I can see is that you somehow influence the oilflow (engine oil) in the flaps-actuator through the cable (see Übersichtsmappe Jumo 213 from 1944, Schema für Hydraulikanlage).

[NRG-Vampire]

Yo-Yo, is the increased drag modelled when the radiator/cowl flaps are fully opened ?

TY

Edited September 26, 2014 by NRG-Vampire

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Yo-Yo, is the increased drag modelled when the radiator/cowl flaps are fully opened ?

TY

 

I'm almost sure it is.

 

Tested it in straight & level flight, and I did notice a loss, but didn't measure it with precision... Will do it next time I fly the Dora :-)

[BlitzPuppet]

Took some pictures at the FHC's D13 this weekend and thought I'd share:

 

[SAM77]

Nice pic

 

Is that a Poli I-16 in the background?????

 

Envy :)

[BlitzPuppet]

Nice pic

 

Is that a Poli I-16 in the background?????

 

Envy :)

 

Yes it was! weird looking little buggers!

 

 

 

 

[Kelevra]

amazing thanks for sharing !

[kubanloewe]

THank you very much, will try to get it.

 

Sollwertfernverstellung means you could set a different max. or min. cooling flap setting.

the normal thermostat control is´nt enough or lets say suboptimal in extreme condition as we know from old cars where you can use additional radiator flaps for cold weather. In sibiria or Alaska with -40°C the normal thermostat control isn´t enough, so trucks and other bigger engines have radiator flaps . At old cars up to the 80´s a special cooler cover at the front end was common in wintertime.

so this additional thing was perhaps a way to move the automatic cooler flap range some degrees more to full open and some degrees to full close to help the thermostat and let the engine run in normal temp range. without it the thermostat opens and due to extreme cold air the differences in coolant up and downstream could be to extreme which is not good for engine material...unequal material lengthen was a problem all the time with those "high end engines" ("hochgezüchtete Motoren") for that time !, sry for my english.

 

If i were the engineer i would do this in that way, but a bit strange there is no word about this thing in a manual ? perhaps the pilot uses it in this way (i would do it so;-) ,haha) After warming up the engine he watch the both coolant temps and they will know what it´s should be in "normal" conditions, lets say 105°C. If the temp is much below or above he moves the radiator flap range in the way that normal temps are given.

Than he knows the engine temp would be in normal conditions at flight only by automatic thermostat control, and he have not care further.

 

could that be ?

[Yo-Yo]

Sollwertfernverstellung means you could set a different max. or min. cooling flap setting.

the normal thermostat control is´nt enough or lets say suboptimal in extreme condition as we know from old cars where you can use additional radiator flaps for cold weather. In sibiria or Alaska with -40°C the normal thermostat control isn´t enough, so trucks and other bigger engines have radiator flaps . At old cars up to the 80´s a special cooler cover at the front end was common in wintertime.

so this additional thing was perhaps a way to move the automatic cooler flap range some degrees more to full open and some degrees to full close to help the thermostat and let the engine run in normal temp range. without it the thermostat opens and due to extreme cold air the differences in coolant up and downstream could be to extreme which is not good for engine material...unequal material lengthen was a problem all the time with those "high end engines" ("hochgezüchtete Motoren") for that time !, sry for my english.

 

If i were the engineer i would do this in that way, but a bit strange there is no word about this thing in a manual ? perhaps the pilot uses it in this way (i would do it so;-) ,haha) After warming up the engine he watch the both coolant temps and they will know what it´s should be in "normal" conditions, lets say 105°C. If the temp is much below or above he moves the radiator flap range in the way that normal temps are given.

Than he knows the engine temp would be in normal conditions at flight only by automatic thermostat control, and he have not care further.

 

could that be ?

 

Dora has no thermostat if we consider this term for the automatic valve closing radiator for coolant and bypasing it directly to the engine. Dora has thermostatic controlled flaps. I think that now we have modelled this system as it really is. As an engineer I can say that it is even more elegant than Mustang has, for example.

THe Mustang has so called relay type system and the actual coolant can have any temperature within fixed range depending on the conditiions. Even for the same conditions the temperature can be different.

 

Dora has analogue type static regulator. This type of regulator requires output parameter (coolant temparature) changing to control flaps position but manual correction allows to set any desired temperature within the certain working range.

If this manual input override this range, flaps, in fact, become manual controlled.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Yo-Yo

[Yo-Yo]

Also interesting is the spare parts list "Fw 190 D ETL Teil 07 Triebwerksanlage"

 

[ATTACH]105080[/ATTACH]

 

Under "Ort.Nr 23" you find "Skalenscheibe" (dial, scale disc).

Which means you can adjust the temperature or angle within certain limits with the handwheel, but since I haven't the drawing or a picture of the scale it's all guessing.

 

The only thing I can see is that you somehow influence the oilflow (engine oil) in the flaps-actuator through the cable (see Übersichtsmappe Jumo 213 from 1944, Schema für Hydraulikanlage).

 

I think it's a kind of Bowden cable? And could you post the hydrolic drawing here (I have it somewhere, but I temporary out of this disk)?

[kubanloewe]

 

".....but manual correction allows to set any desired temperature within the certain working range.

.

 

that´s what i wrote.

But i think ingame the auto flaps are´nt working if any input is given with the handwheel ? That perhaps should only in full open or full close or in other words when Sollwertsteller is set out of range from auto thermostat range.

[Yo-Yo]

that´s what i wrote.

But i think ingame the auto flaps are´nt working if any input is given with the handwheel ? That perhaps should only in full open or full close or in other words when Sollwertsteller is set out of range from auto thermostat range.

 

In my current version they work as they should :) The next question is - if these changes are already in the current updated customers version.

 

But one can check it - assign this handwheel + and - to buttons and try to slightly turn it during a steady flight. If the steady temperature can be changed, for example, for +-5 C and stays constant as you change IAS without changing power - it works. If you keep turnng this knob you can see that the flaps going open or close and the temperature begins to float - it works! :)

[Eldur]

In my current version they work as they should :) The next question is - if these changes are already in the current updated customers version.

 

I highly doubt it is in the "customer version". Flew it yesterday, wanted to check the radiator flaps and shut them where I thought they should open themselves not to get over a certain temperature. I was just flying at 2400rpm and the engine blew in a matter of seconds due to the extremey quickly rising temps. And there would be no reason to set a desired temp that high the engine can't withstand for like 20-30 seconds. So definately something's broken here.