D-Scythe Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 Higher survivability? I dont' think so... I'll put an example. As other people here I'm also an aircraft engineer(civil aviation) and I have daily contacts with pilots. They all fly very well- making ILS approaches and successful landings in extreme weather when better equipped planes are grounded, they fly overloaded planes, they climb faster than the competition and so on... But I don't think this makes the good pilot. What about if the equipment fails, what about the service life of the aircraft? Not to mention that in most cases they can't determine a malfuntion when it happens. Simply because they are not aware enough of how the systems and equipment works. They have the "good hands", but how could this help'em when there's an emergency situation, not troubleshooted in the flight manual. What decision will make a pilot(who flies like nobody else) in case of emergency when there's a limited and/or contradicting information if he doesn't know how the aircraft work in details? So my point is that to have a good SA and "good hands" one must have a good knowledge, which should be the tool to achieve the goal. And the good knowledge is precious in non-standart situation, it saves life;). I disagree. To a fighter pilot (not civil), the actions they take in a combat/emergency situation is driven by instinct, and less by thought. At Mach 1, things happen too fast to dwell on something for too long. You "do" what "feels" right more so than you do what you think is right. At least that's the impression I get from reading various accounts by fighter pilots. Take the incident with the one wing IAF F-15 landing. The IP in the backseat wanted to punch out, cause he knew that it's not possible to fly with one wing. Hell, even McDonnell Douglas thought it was impossible when asked about it, and they built the plane. Fortunately, the pilot found that he could still fly the jet, and elected not to eject. And guess what? He landed the thing, more on pilot instinct than his knowledge about the plane. I agree with you, that knowledge is important, but only to a certain extent. IMO, having a good instinct/natural ability to fly the jet is just as if not more important than trying to know everything you can about the jet.
RvETito Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 I disagree. To a fighter pilot (not civil), the actions they take in a combat/emergency situation is driven by instinct, and less by thought. At Mach 1, things happen too fast to dwell on something for too long. You "do" what "feels" right more so than you do what you think is right. Instinct? Sure, but it doesn't fall from the sky just like that. It must be trained and developped for years. And for every single fighter pilot around the globe this training starts with... maths, physics etc. :D Take the incident with the one wing IAF F-15 landing. The IP in the backseat wanted to punch out, cause he knew that it's not possible to fly with one wing. Hell, even McDonnell Douglas thought it was impossible when asked about it, and they built the plane. Fortunately, the pilot found that he could still fly the jet, and elected not to eject. And guess what? He landed the thing, more on pilot instinct than his knowledge about the plane. I agree with you, that knowledge is important, but only to a certain extent. IMO, having a good instinct/natural ability to fly the jet is just as if not more important than trying to know everything you can about the jet. It's rediculous to think that this F-15 pilot has been starting to calculate the differentional equations determining his wingless aircraft motion when this happened but I'm convinced in his training and knowledge about his Eagle. What do you know about his theoritical background? I'm sure it have been at high level. Otherwise, he simply shouldn't be there, flying one of the world's best fighters. Speaking about instincts, one of the most natural pilot reaction in such situation is to save the plane, ignoring his safety. "See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89. =RvE=
nscode Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 K, then. Ou, here you are, baby.... I am not even thinking about the ground at this point. I am watching the missiles. I don’t punch off my tanks because I just simply forget. It’s hard to find the jettison button at night under such circumstances. As I am going down, I realize the missiles are arcing over. As they hit the horizon, I pull back on the stick and put the missiles at the top of my canopy and pull at them. I’ve rolled and I’m starting to do an orthogonal roll, what we call a last-ditch maneuver. At this point, the first missile swings by. Then the second one goes by and I lose track of the third one. All I see is a huge light out of the back of the canopy. I realize I am upside down at this point and I see nothing but AAA below me. I roll out the aircraft and realize that my burner has been lit the whole time. The AAA gunners are shooting at my afterburner, which lights me up against the night sky. Gunners from the east and west are all shooting at my afterburner. I’m at 18,000 feet and the AAA is getting closer and closer to me. So I keep the burner lit and just climb. The engagement is over. It was an F-16 after all... read it a long time ago... http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1999/articles/oct_99/oct3_p.html Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
AndyHill Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 I've never played Ace Combat, but here's a guess: There's lots of radio chatter and situational feedback in Ace Combat, which makes the player feel like a part of a team? It's probably also easier to know what you need to do and when. Just my guess. ________________________________________________________ Lock on MUST have toe-brake functionality with differential braking! My blog full of incoherent ramblings on random subjects: https://anttiilomaki.wordpress.com/
Guest IguanaKing Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 Same here... I agree that the pilot should constantly have just the basic information about the flight and system parameters in order to ficus on the task but what if a sudden malfunction occurs? Then he'll be glad to have the brains trained. Malfunctions can still be dealt with under stem power. The point is to first learn how everything works together and then attempt to train for every possible scenario so it gets commited to memory. Everything has a procedure and these procedures can be trained for in simulators so they become second nature. NS Code pointed out an F-15 pilot who couldn't find a switch in the dark. Why couldn't he find that switch? I'll bet he knew exactly what the switch did, and when he should use it...but he hadn't trained enough to find it without thinking about it or being able to see it. Visual cues in the cockpit and even the position of your hands and individual fingers for various actions get committed to memory after a certain amount of repetition. That's why a real pilot can't easily go from the real jet to a computer keyboard. The layout of key commands doesn't even ATTEMPT to mimic the positions of those switches in the real thing. If the guy has to take the time to read the placards on his panel before he knows where something is...he won't live long in combat. Do you know why gauges in an analog configuration (needles) are so much better than something which just displays a numerical representation?
169th_Crusty Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 and takes a retard to shoot it down. :p LOL, finally; I fit in too. :)
nscode Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 NS Code pointed out an F-15 pilot who couldn't find a switch in the dark. Why couldn't he find that switch? I'll bet he knew exactly what the switch did, and when he should use it...but he hadn't trained enough to find it without thinking about it or being able to see it. I bett you he could do it eyes closed today. The point is that it was a real combat situation, and that your organism changes in such situations, including reflexes. Only two things that can save u in such situations is brain override, with some help from lower body round thingis ;) Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Hawg11 Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 Ou, here you are, baby.... No need for insults. Anyway, you stated that the pilot survived by pure luck. This is wrong. He was manuevering from the start to avoid the SAM: ...I start a defensive maneuver. I put the SAMs off my right wing, light the afterburner, and start to dive at the ground. http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1999/articles/oct_99/oct3_p.html The pilot NEEDED to light the burner and dive toward the AAA to escape the first SAM. The fact that the pilot realizes, after the missile threat is eliminated, that the burners are still lit, illustrates the very point you were arguing against. A real pilot does what he needs to by instinct (stem power). Bonus points: If you can tell me what "Code One" means (as it relates to aircraft), I won't think you are totally clueless... Dave "Hawg11" St. Jean
RvETito Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 Do you know why gauges in an analog configuration (needles) are so much better than something which just displays a numerical representation? Because you don't have to remember so many numbers. For example gas temperature- a needle that shows 600'C in a gauge scaled to 900 requires less time to interprete than a digital counter showing just 3 digits, i.e. 600 degrees. You dont' have to care so much about it as long it stays in the green sector. "See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89. =RvE=
Guest IguanaKing Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Yup...pretty much. Your brain can process a relative position MUCH faster than it can interpret symbols such as numerals and letters. :D
Guest IguanaKing Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 I bett you he could do it eyes closed today. The point is that it was a real combat situation, and that your organism changes in such situations, including reflexes. Only two things that can save u in such situations is brain override, with some help from lower body round thingis ;) Yes, he probably could. Nothing can prepare a pilot for actually getting shot at, except combat experience. Imagine what would have happened though if that same pilot had to think about each cockpit operation before he did it while flying in friendly airspace. The AAA wouldn't have needed to engage him...he would have spent so much time head-down working things out with his cognitive abilities that he would have crashed his own plane. ;) The round thingies are definitely necessary for a combat pilot to be effective, but they can also get him into trouble. I guess there just needs to be a balance. On the other hand, Captain Kim Campbell seems to do quite well without them.
bflagg Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 If you can tell me what "Code One" means (as it relates to aircraft), I won't think you are totally clueless... isn't that the codeword for the thingy about a laser and shark project? Thanks, Brett
hitman Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Malfunctions can still be dealt with under stem power. The point is to first learn how everything works together and then attempt to train for every possible scenario so it gets commited to memory. Everything has a procedure and these procedures can be trained for in simulators so they become second nature. NS Code pointed out an F-15 pilot who couldn't find a switch in the dark. Why couldn't he find that switch? I'll bet he knew exactly what the switch did, and when he should use it...but he hadn't trained enough to find it without thinking about it or being able to see it. Visual cues in the cockpit and even the position of your hands and individual fingers for various actions get committed to memory after a certain amount of repetition. That's why a real pilot can't easily go from the real jet to a computer keyboard. The layout of key commands doesn't even ATTEMPT to mimic the positions of those switches in the real thing. If the guy has to take the time to read the placards on his panel before he knows where something is...he won't live long in combat. Do you know why gauges in an analog configuration (needles) are so much better than something which just displays a numerical representation? Most armies train their soldiers to dissassemble their weapons in the dark...oh how I remember spending countless hours trying to put my 240g back together...just me and my alfa gunner. Even though a gun is easier to put back together (albeight more complicated), to know the position of every switch in the dark would take at least 6 months to learn the proper pattern down. It takes about 5000 motions to one switch alone to make it instinctive.
capttrob Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Did it not ever strike you that the civ plane you were flying had rather different lift-enhancing wings? lol.... now i've heard it all. Are you telling me a 32 passenger regional jet can outperform an F-15C due to NACA airfoil design alone? After Sept 11, we were intercepted many times by all types of our finest DoD inventory (mock engagements for practice, notfied by ATC prior to the intercept, pretty cool if you ask me, but made some Capts nervous). I can tell you from personal experience, the F-15C has much more performance than a 32 seat regional jet.....lol too funny. I think i remember reading somewhere that you can stand an F-15 on its tail off the deck and climb to FL310 without breaking a sweat. Try to do that in LOMAC at any weight. The wings on an F-15 arent made for lift, they are made for stabilization. Like a rocket. Hence the virtually 1:1 power to weight ratio.
Guest IguanaKing Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Most armies train their soldiers to dissassemble their weapons in the dark...oh how I remember spending countless hours trying to put my 240g back together...just me and my alfa gunner. Even though a gun is easier to put back together (albeight more complicated), to know the position of every switch in the dark would take at least 6 months to learn the proper pattern down. It takes about 5000 motions to one switch alone to make it instinctive. No it doesn't. We all do something similar in our cars when we operate our stereo, headlights, heater/AC, and other everyday things without taking our eyes off the road. Not as many switches, but it doesn't take NEARLY as much repetition as you might think. ;) Assembling your 240 in the dark is a little different...none of the parts are in a fixed position relative to yours, and many require a specific alignment to go back together...so, yes, its A LOT more complicated than operating switches in a darkened cockpit. :D
capttrob Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 No it doesn't. We all do something similar in our cars when we operate our stereo, headlights, heater/AC, and other everyday things without taking our eyes off the road. Not as many switches, but it doesn't take NEARLY as much repetition as you might think. ;) Assembling your 240 in the dark is a little different...none of the parts are in a fixed position relative to yours, and many require a specific alignment to go back together...so, yes, its A LOT more complicated than operating switches in a darkened cockpit. :D You're right IK. I can find every button or switch on my CH system in the dark and i just programmed it last week! lol Now throw a few R-77 at me, and sometimes im putting the gear down when i want to drop flare and chaff...lol In my civilian flying, most pilots can find every switch, lever, button, in the dark, before they even get in the airplane.
Rastus Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Well a bit OT, but great to see some other muso's here Rastus - I am a budding noobie to the guitar scene (been playing around 2.5 years - I would really appreciate any useful resources or info you have on advancing my technique LOVE THE GUITAR play it everywhere i go - even the loo !!! HA HA HA Tip 1: do not play it in the toilet, If you bust a string - OUCH! You may be crippled for life. I play too, but am at a rut on where to go next with it..... I would consider myself a beginner for 5 years... LOL, I am still a beginner of 25 Years. There is a quote out there & I am not sure who said it "The guitar is the easiest instrument to learn but the hardest to master". I have to agree. The trick is to work out what you want to do with it (apart from sitting on the toilet). Do you just want to strum a few chords & maybe sing along or get others (at a party) to sing? This is a level that majority of people want to get to and enjoy very much. So get down to the music shop & find a book with 1001 songs with chord charts, & start practicing. Practice changing chords quickly & confidently so you dont have to watch your hands. Print out the words of your favorite songs so others can sing along without having to crowd around your book. Do you want to become a lead guitarist? The easiest way is to get some lessons. You could work it out for yourself but it is much easier & quicker when somebody shows you. Yes, you will have to learn scales & a lot of them, including all the modes. The beauty of lessons is a competent teacher can show you how & when these scales are all used. And dont forget your rhythm skills, even Steve Vai has to play some rhythm. Once you have some basics & can sort of play, the next thing to do is find some others to play with & start jamming songs. This will force you to learn songs & guitar parts that you wouldnt normally think of. Do you want to be a rock star, making a living doing what you love, touring around the country/world, sleaping with beautiful women along the way. Laugh all you like, it is still possible, just be prepared to put a lot of work into it (a lot more than 3 hours a day). When you practice it has to be constructive & not just rehashing tunes & techniques you are allready comfortable with. It is getting a lot harder nowdays to make a living as a muso, with the advent of poker machines, computers, and the whole "home entertainment" thing, a lot of people are not going out to live music venues as often, and are instead sitting at home flying flight sim's and suchlike. Where this is not a bad thing, it does mean that pubs do not pay as much (due to smaller crowds) which makes it harder for us to make a living. If you have a good product that is different than the normal (so you pull people to venues) you may stand a chance. All in all there is a lot of books out there showing various techniques & styles, so spend some money on your hobby, and dont forget the theory. You dont always have to be able to read music but you do need to know how a chord is built & why it is shaped in that damn awkward position (and how to invert it for an easier position). Some books have a CD with the guitar panned to one side so you can practice with a decent backing (I use a Motown book for practicing Bass). Concentrate on one style of playing rather than trying all styles. As you develop, your own style will change. Dont be afraid of concentrating on one favorite artist, no matter how much you try to clone them, you will always be yourself. You will always branch off to other artists & this combination of influences is what determines your own style. Enjoy. Playing guitar or any instrument is an enjoyable experience, either in the bedroom by yourself, at a party in front of friends, or in a stadium full of screaming fans, it's fun, so enjoy the ride. OK, Back to topic Cheers
Gripes Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 ...BTW, why do you think there's some military pilots who enjoy LOMAC over F4? We don't all enjoy flipping every switch in the cockpit to get airborne and wreak some havoc. I enjoy flying with likeminded individuals who are more into the tactics and flight dynamics over the checklists and switchology. My plane of choice is the Eagle, and while it still doesn't model the real one in true fidelity, it still gives me some of the feelings I had flying in the real one. So, don't be all bent out of shape because a Hog driver (most need their head examined anyway :p ) dissed your sim. Get enjoyment where you can and if you're one of those people who need reassurance, then find another Hog driver who likes LOMAC. With all it's idiosyncracies and inaccuracies, I still like LOMAC over F4 because of the feeling of flight, it's ability to allow me to fly fingertip realistically, and its ability to allow me to SOMETIMES use appropriate real world tactics, on occasion, (some restrictions may apply, consult your lawyer for details) ;) You got a ride in a back seat or were you a PIC? In any case, it would be nice to link up in HL and do some serious and organized Eagle flying.
SwingKid Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 My opinion: We need to know what kind of a rig "Beef" was playing on. Most of you guys are probably hooked up with HOTAS, TrackIR, rudder pedals and heaven only knows what else. If I'm going to test the waters in a new flight sim, I'm going to want to learn a little more about it before I invest in that kind of gear. I'll try it out with an analog joystick and that's it, and then if I like it, maybe consider something more after I get deep into it. But I have to get deep into it first. Lock On is a sim for people who are already committed simmers. Falcon 3.0, IMHO, is the kind of sim that gets people to become committed simmers. (Maybe substitute with "Ace Combat" for "Beef") Everything on the HUD and RWR - I can read it clearly without zooming, even without TrackIR. Want to look past the restricted monitor screen for bandits? Magic one-key padlock, no fumbling around. Tired of building new missions? The dynamic campaign will assign you one in seconds. I spent my time flying combat in Falcon 3.0, not doing this: I wonder how much time he spent in Lockon setting up his joystick & buttons I mean, we'll get there.. Eventually... But for now - what's to disagree? ;) -SK
nscode Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 No need for insults. No need for giant emoticons :P Anyway, you stated that the pilot survived by pure luck. This is wrong. He was manuevering from the start to avoid the SAM: The pilot NEEDED to light the burner and dive toward the AAA to escape the first SAM. The fact that the pilot realizes, after the missile threat is eliminated, that the burners are still lit, illustrates the very point you were arguing against. A real pilot does what he needs to by instinct (stem power). He was lucky that he could complete the maneuvers with unpropper configuration for the given conditions. It wasn't just luck in general, it was thanx to the aircrafts ability that he didn't just stall at the top, and thanx to the fact that them were some a bit old SAMs, so he didn't need the maximum of aircrafts performance. But at his case.. luck. 1 Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Hawg11 Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 He was lucky that he could complete the maneuvers with unpropper configuration for the given conditions. It wasn't just luck in general, it was thanx to the aircrafts ability that he didn't just stall at the top, and thanx to the fact that them were some a bit old SAMs, so he didn't need the maximum of aircrafts performance. But at his case.. luck. 1 Dave "Hawg11" St. Jean
nscode Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Oooou, Haaawg, how I looove your biiiiiiiiiiig...... smilies??? :D ;) Chill out man :) Yes, he probably could. Nothing can prepare a pilot for actually getting shot at, except combat experience. Imagine what would have happened though if that same pilot had to think about each cockpit operation before he did it while flying in friendly airspace. The AAA wouldn't have needed to engage him...he would have spent so much time head-down working things out with his cognitive abilities that he would have crashed his own plane. ;) The round thingies are definitely necessary for a combat pilot to be effective, but they can also get him into trouble. I guess there just needs to be a balance. On the other hand, Captain Kim Campbell seems to do quite well without them. Yes, ofcourse you need to train hard, but my point is that no matter how hard you train, you have to stay in control. You need to be able to deal with situations that didn't happen at training. Becouse he probably never actually droped his fuel tanks in training, he was unable to perform even such a simple task as pushing a button, and even forgot to do that one step he new should be done, but usually wasn't. Not doing it became an equal part of the routine. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
sumoscouse Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 I hope your not just plucking your "G" string... ??? I play too, but am at a rut on where to go next with it..... I would consider myself a beginner for 5 years... He He bflagg if only i could reach it !! Exactly the same as me matey feel that i HAVE HIT A BRICK WALL and need some guidance on how to advance. Should be getting some useful info of rastus. will keep u informed Cheers SumoScouse Out :cool:
Guest IguanaKing Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 :D ;) Chill out man :) Yes, ofcourse you need to train hard, but my point is that no matter how hard you train, you have to stay in control. You need to be able to deal with situations that didn't happen at training. Becouse he probably never actually droped his fuel tanks in training, he was unable to perform even such a simple task as pushing a button, and even forgot to do that one step he new should be done, but usually wasn't. Not doing it became an equal part of the routine. Emergency procedures and systems management are often trained for in simulators, since it is too risky and too expensive to do IRL when you don't have to. This would include dropping your tanks for emergency evasion. Now...I know some will disagree with this, but, you can't teach somebody to be an excellent pilot. You can teach the same group of people all the same things and some will never be all that great. They'll be good enough, but they won't be as good as others. How they react under pressure will separate the men from the boys.
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