[REPORTED] aircraft visibilty-LOD system

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

hey guys!

 

ok, first of all, in my view, dcs does a pretty good job in general, when its about aircraft spotting.certainly better than any other sim, ive flown so far.

 

but does it mean its perfect, or does it mean that there is no room for improvement?certainly not in my opinion.

 

i know, there are several threads about aircraft visibilty already, but i think this still deserves its own thread.

 

also im posting this here in this subforum, as i didnt check all other aircraft, but this is true for both the p51 and the fw190(i assume, that this is also true for other aircraft though)

 

to make this post a little shorter, i will demonstrate this only with the p51.i assume im certainly not the first person to notice that, but as i havent seen anything about this on the forum, i thought i will give it a go.

 

i always had the feeling,that the far distance "dots" and how they appear/disappear at a certain range is strange.for example i became aware, that when a contact is above you, it will pop up only at closer distances, than if it would be at the same altitude, or below you.also,that the contacts at higher distance blend so perfectly into the terrain, was suspicious as well.

so i had a closer look at the lod models in DCS World/Bazar/World/Shapes/

 

first i looked at the file, which seems responsible for the individual lod models of the p51, and when they switch: P-51D.lods

 

model={
   lods={
       {"P-51D.edm",50.0};
       {"P-51D_lod1.edm",100.0};
       {"P-51D_lod2.edm",200.0};
       {"P-51D_lod3.edm",300.0};
       {"P-51D_lod4.edm",500.0};
       {"P-51D_lod5.edm",4000.0};
       {"ld_tec.edm",20000.0};
   };
   collision_shell="P-51D-COLLISION.edm";
}

...so there are 6different lod models, and a suspicious file called ld_tec.edm.

i began to open them in the dcs model viewer, and i was surprised to see, that even P-51D_lod5.edm shows still a really detailed model of the p51.

just to compare, the closest one you will see:

P-51D.edm:

 

 

and the farthest lod model:

P-51D_lod5.edm:

 

 

so then i opened the "suspicious" ld_tec.edm file, which you will see at a distance of 4km or higher:

 

ld_tec.edm:

 

 

ok, its a block,a green one, probably not the best colour chosen, and would explain why distance contacts "dots" sometimes blend so perfectly into the terrain, that they just disappear within it, even if you know where to look.

 

but to my surprise, when i began to look at this block from other angles, it became apparent, that this block becomes transparent when viewed from below:

 

 

 

if you move it more, it becomes totally invisible:

 

 

so to confirm that, i edited the P-51D.lods file, so that the ld_tec.edm "lod dot" doesnt only appear at 4km distance or higher, but already really close(i think 60m), and this is what i got:

 

 

so it seems, that when looked at certain angles, planes disappear at certain distances, depending on the file, completely, regardless of zoom or resolution.

this is also happening with the FW-190(only difference its happening at >=6km), and very likely its true for other planes as well

 

 

i dont know, maybe im overlooking something here, or just dont understand what im seeing, but it seems, that this ld_tec.edm file was more intended to represent a far distance lod model for ground units which you will not see from underneath anyway?or is this really intended?if so why?

 

if it is indeed not intended, than i would assume this is an easy fix?

 

 

Edited October 1, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

same for F86 @ 6+km this "ld_tec.edm"-box is used.

interestingly though, it seems the F86 doesnt use any lod models except the very detailed one up until 6km distance where it then switches to the "box", and nothing in between.

Edited October 1, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[Bounder]

Great find David. Really hope aircraft visibility in DCS can be looked at by the devs, it's vital for ww2 era combat.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Bounder

[ViFF]

Thank you for this information!

 

Is there any way we can control and edit the lod transition distances on the server side in multiplayer sessions?

 

Thanks for any info about this...

[Robo.]

Great work, David, +1!

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Thank you for this information!

 

Is there any way we can control and edit the lod transition distances on the server side in multiplayer sessions?

 

Thanks for any info about this...

 

well, preferably, ED would make sure that this "box" (ld_tec.edm) does not become invisible at certain angles and that they also change the colour.i would imagine this must be a really easy fix for them.

 

but yeah, in theory you can adjust the file(s) of the server, and then run an integrity check on it, to make sure that everybody who joins the server has the same file.this would mean though, that all other players, who did not adjust their file(s) and use the stock files, would not be able to join.

 

it would be great if somebody with the abilty(i guess 3dsmax would be necessary?) could create a mod and just make sure this box does not become invisible and also change the colour, and release it to the puplic.

 

but ideally ED would implement such a change officially.

Edited October 1, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[airdoc]

that's a very interesting find David.

 

It sounds as if you discovered a possible bug in LODs.

 

Maybe it explains why you observed that contacts above you were invisible at greater distances, but we would have to see ED's answer to this.

 

I wonder though if these LODs are all the same for different skins of the aircraft; i.e. a silver mustang would appear as green from 500meters, or as a green dot from 4000m. This could explain why spotting a mustang against the ground is so difficult in the crimean map. The skin of the LOD is almost the same color as the terrain.

 

Have you checked the LODs for the Dora?

 

If this is so, then simply by darkening (or manipulating) the LOD colors could have a significant impact on improving visibility by increasing contrast with the background.

 

excellent find!

 

EDIT : could it also be possible that a modder would increase far dot size simply by making the box bigger?

Edited October 1, 2014 by airdoc

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

from my testing it seems, that as long as the "real" lods are used meaning for example P-51D_lod5.edm, it will take advantage of the colour of the skins....but when switching to the box, it will always be that green box.obviously, in most circumstances, it will appear dark, almost black, but when viewed from the wrong angle, it will show up green, and blend perfectly into the surrounding.or worse, if viewed from beneath, it will become invisible.

 

a simple test i did, was just to change the line, where the ld_tec.edm is used, and let it use the farthest lod model of the aircraft instead.i noticed that this way, its easier to identify planes at farther distances, as the skins are rendered still.also, the problem of disappearing planes above you was solved with this.still, its not an ideal solution, as it doesnt make any sense to have a still pretty detailed lod model visible out at ~7km, where it only consists of "3pixels", wasting resources.alhtough with using the least detailed lod model for the p51, i didnt notice any performance difference.

 

but when using only the most detailed P-51D.edm lod model, and had +20 planes in a mission, at least my pc suffered heavily in performance.

 

EDIT: yes checked for the dora, and the box is there as well.only difference is the distances where lod models switch.the box will become visible at 6k for the dora for example.

i guess it would be a easy job for a modder make sure this box doesnt become invisible and change the colour as well...as for box size, i dont really think its necessary to make it bigger.as long as the colour is not this camo-green, and as long as its granted that this box is visible from all angles, i think it would be a big improvement in aircraft visibilty, but yet stay realistic.

but i would defintiely prefer to have ED look into this, and fix it.and then release it in a patch so that everybody plays at an even field.

Edited October 1, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[RonyS]

Great work David - Thanks.

 

Can we make a few boxes for different distances?.

 

This will allow creating a "less linear" sizing of a single pixel (dot). If we could add a few ld_tec.edm for 4000-8000,8000-16000, and 16000 to 20000, and increase their size accordingly, we could allow better visibility.

 

This brings in mind the question of MP games cheating. Can anyone replace ld_tec.edm LOD to a larger object and gain the advantage against other players?

 

Thanks,

Rony

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^yes, but as soon as the servers use a proper integrity check, its granted that all people have to have the same file.so it can be avoided that people just use a lod model of a b52 for example.

[TwilightZone]

....great find DavidRed.....hopefully the ED team takes note.....:-)

[otavio]

Spot on dude, if someone could mod the lods to an acceptable viewing distance, we could try and get the community to use the same files and enforce them on ww2 servers online.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^it would only need one 3d modeller, either from ED or the modding community to add this missing polygon on the box, and also change the colour of the box to dark grey instead of camo green, and i think spotting aircraft would all of a sudden become way better.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Great find! Really interested what ED has to say about this...

[Python]

Anything that improves spotting in DCS can only be a good thing, nice work.

[Random]

Excellent work Davidred. I'd like too see ultra simple aircraft shapes rather than a box personally. With colouring based on the skin used.

[SJNitrous]

Great work, David, +1!

[Einherjer]

Nice find - Hope to see a mod - larger box and better Color

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

well, i would prefer to have this either confirmed or disproved by someone official from ED, and if confirmed, to see a global fix, so that the community does not get divided with mods.

[NineLine]

Hey David, thanks for the report, I am going to see if its reported yet internally, if not I will report it.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

great!

[Viersbovsky]

Great find!

This might explain why no matter how hard you strain your eyes, some targets seem to be invisible when approached until you are at about 4km - they really are.

 

I hope someone can do some tests with boxes visible form all directions and with all kinds of colors - as well as ED chiming in on this find.

 

*edit* That´s reassuring, sithspawn, thanks!

[POLARIS1]

Well Done !!!

[Vukac]

Great work, David, +1!:thumbup:

[Einherjer]

[REPORTED] aircraft visibilty-LOD system

 

Renamed the B-51.EDM to ld_tec.edm and : see a dot in external view at about 22 nm

 

Edit - ok 22nm was too much it was the exhaust what i have seen but when i zoom Out, the Model (f-86) became a B-52 :) nice

Edited October 1, 2014 by Einherjer