[EVALUATING] ASP for A-2-A gun use incorrect / Radar

[sissypilot]

Well I dont doubt that f-16 shows that on HUD, but for a precise HUD interpolation horizontal and vertical angle relative to seeker head is not enough. Just think about it! You have a torch 20 cm away from IR head and guess what behind that angle further that line (relative to torch) the target can be anywhere as far as the head is concerned, so only the head'sinput can not be enought. I tend to lean to tharos's version: the software somehow artificially generates an guesstimated exact position based on the usual engagement distances or something more exotic like heat strengh or I dunno.

 

In fact for simple distance measurement you do not need a lock, i have limited knowledge on the working of the radar, but early radio distance measuring units for gun aiming (like in sabre or mig-17 or the UTI version of Mig-21 wirhout proper radar) did not need radar lock they simply relied on the echoed signal from the nearest object.

[sissypilot]

The first versions of the Mig-21 they say did not have radar which is partially true. The f-13 nose section was not big enough to house a full combat radar unit but it did house an SRD-5 (codename kvant) radar distance unit which fed ASP with distance for AA guns. The subsequent mig21 versions were equipped with radar which made the radar range unit obsolete (as all radars have simple ranging mode) but interestingly the two seater later MIGs retained the old radar ranging unit as they has small nose sections too. Why? To keep them at least partially combat capable. This is also a big argument that it is completelly insane even to assume that the bis has no gun ranging when the two seater whith less combat value had.

[Einherjer]

The Russian planes are the worst documented aircrafts in the world ... So, this discussion is highly speculative I think.

[Harle]

The Russian planes are the worst documented aircrafts in the world ... So, this discussion is highly speculative I think.

 

What's so speculative about it? All the radar-ASP features in question have been clarified here with the relevant pieces of documentation.

[Art-J]

Oh, they're documented well allright. The language barrier, spiced up with a bit of Cold War era secrecy obsession makes finding old documents more difficult, though. Simple google-fu is not good enough :D.

[Elefant1301]

The Russian planes are the worst documented aircrafts in the world ... So, this discussion is highly speculative I think.

 

 

 

I even think the opposite, stuff about western aircrafts are much more difficult to find.

Plus who could buy a western 70s fighter jet for less than $100,000 ?

The two combined make the soviet era planes less secretive than the others...

Edited April 6, 2015 by Elefant1301

[fjacobsen]

Well I dont doubt that f-16 shows that on HUD, but for a precise HUD interpolation horizontal and vertical angle relative to seeker head is not enough. Just think about it! You have a torch 20 cm away from IR head and guess what behind that angle further that line (relative to torch) the target can be anywhere as far as the head is concerned, so only the head'sinput can not be enought. I tend to lean to tharos's version: the software somehow artificially generates an guesstimated exact position based on the usual engagement distances or something more exotic like heat strengh or I dunno.

 

In fact for simple distance measurement you do not need a lock, i have limited knowledge on the working of the radar, but early radio distance measuring units for gun aiming (like in sabre or mig-17 or the UTI version of Mig-21 wirhout proper radar) did not need radar lock they simply relied on the echoed signal from the nearest object.

 

 

I do agree that radar ranging should be implementet for the Mig-21Bis, but still...

 

To superimpose the pipper on a target only needs vertical/horizontal angular position and not range.

 

FinnJ

[sissypilot]

Soviet planes are not documented? Think about it again:

http://militechlit.rusff.ru/viewtopic.php?id=16

That was just a short google, you have everything from ground maintenance to flight manual. There is an other world opening up by speaking languages :)

 

I dunno about western counterparts, but these are actual military documents. What more we need?

 

(I hate when someone says russian, those things were not russian they were Soviet!)

Edited April 6, 2015 by sissypilot

[WildBillKelsoe]

It sounds funny, because in reality that radar was even worse than in the game. :)

 

 

 

:D

 

In real life a MiG-21 depended on a ground controlled interception unit (GCI) because of a very weak radar and little quantity of fuel. After you take off you start to receive commands from a GCI or an AWACS. Searching a target on your own is almost pointless thing. This plane is a pure interceptor.

 

I just tested this in Red rover, red rover!

 

I fully agree, Sir. My fingers are sore from mashing that F7/F4 key for bogey dope every 15 seconds. Ultimately I seldom find targets on Sapphire unless they are in a collision course (scan pattern is wicked)..., even with mechanical tilting 1.5 degrees up, and using meteo filter, side-lobe husher, its not a powerful radar.

 

Still, its challenging to try and locate one on your own. (I mean 30 km from Krymsk to Novorossyk (or sisk, apologies). makes it harder with mountains facing you and the good old Gauntlet pointing at you.

Edited April 6, 2015 by WildBillKelsoe

[fjacobsen]

Any timeline on when we will see a fix ?

 

Just curious, since this debate has been on hold for some time now.

 

FinnJ

[Sceptre]

 

(I hate when someone says russian, those things were not russian they were Soviet!)

 

They were both :)

 

But I agree they are very well documented

[Harle]

Any timeline on when we will see a fix ?

 

Just curious, since this debate has been on hold for some time now.

 

FinnJ

 

Right! It's been a while already.

[Dudikoff]

Well I dont doubt that f-16 shows that on HUD, but for a precise HUD interpolation horizontal and vertical angle relative to seeker head is not enough. Just think about it! You have a torch 20 cm away from IR head and guess what behind that angle further that line (relative to torch) the target can be anywhere as far as the head is concerned, so only the head'sinput can not be enought. I tend to lean to tharos's version: the software somehow artificially generates an guesstimated exact position based on the usual engagement distances or something more exotic like heat strengh or I dunno.

 

I don't see where GGTharos implied something like what you're saying. He just said that past a certain range this parallax error between your point of view and the seeker one will stop being noticeable on HUD (e.g. I'd expect a seeker lock would be somewhat off the mark for very close targets). What they theoretically might do in the WCS is adjust the readings from the seeker a bit based on e.g. the exact pylon carrying the missile to reduce this error, but I have no idea if they actually bother doing that.

 

Heat strength can't be used since the system doesn't know the nature of the source (e.g. a rear-hemisphere engine in the afterburner or a leading edge of a fast approaching target).

Edited April 24, 2015 by Dudikoff

[sissypilot]

iiozic: For the record: I have no idea how the modern planes do that, to have a debate with me on that would be fruitless :) One thing is for sure the Mig does not do that. No fancy circle around planes on the ASP, nothing just plane beep in the helmet indicates lock, thats all. I have no idea where leatherneck got this mess called ASP from, when it is a pretty well documented issue as discussed here.

[GGTharos]

There's no need to debate anything. I'm telling you what they don't use, and that is ANY estimation of range to target, by any method :)

 

You get range only if the radar is locked on, but IR weapons (let's stick to sidewinders) can be used independently of the radar, whether it is in standby or operating or flat out INOP.

 

The only range estimation that's made in that case is with the pilot Mk1 eyeball to figure out if he's in good firing parameters. He doesn't input that into the fire control system in any way.

 

iiozic: For the record: I have no idea how the modern planes do that, to have a debate with me on that would be fruitless :) One thing is for sure the Mig does not do that. No fancy circle around planes on the ASP, nothing just plane beep in the helmet indicates lock, thats all. I have no idea where leatherneck got this mess called ASP from, when it is a pretty well documented issue as discussed here.

[Harle]

You get range only if the radar is locked on

 

So what you are saying is that the pilot had to lock the target with the radar first before trying to gun it at a range over 600 m?

[Flagrum]

So what you are saying is that the pilot had to lock the target with the radar first before trying to gun it at a range over 600 m?

No, he is talking about IR missiles, not guns.

[Dudikoff]

iiozic: For the record: I have no idea how the modern planes do that, to have a debate with me on that would be fruitless :)

 

Granted, but you keep posting that there must be some range estimation involved.

[Harle]

No, he is talking about IR missiles, not guns.

 

That much I've noticed. But still it does have some implications for the gun aiming as well. The statement I've previously cited does.

[Flagrum]

That much I've noticed. But still it does have some implications for the gun aiming as well. The statement I've previously cited does.

This part of the discussion was about IR missiles and GGTharos was more specifically refering to the general principle (of western aircraft -> Sidewinder). And in this context he only said, that ranging information can only come from the radar. Imo this is not meant to be "proof" that this must be true for the MiG-21 (although it was already concluded elsewhere that it should be the case). Manual ranging was probably not mentioned because it is probably more "estimating the range" than "getting the range" ... and fwiw, is probably even less relevant in the context of the posting (IR missiles).

[sissypilot]

Granted, but you keep posting that there must be some range estimation involved.

 

OK lets make it clear:

1. In A-A "GUN" "AUTO" mode: yes the ASP computes based on target distance if it is locked, contrary to LNs implementation.

2. In A-A "Missile" mode: no he ASP does not compute any distance no radar is needed and no fancy circle is drawn around target in ASP, it is only beep and launch authorized light, contrary to LNs implementation.

There are additional minor things:

3 the left black distance range meter is not implemented correctly (it works like the "lazur" system it is updated with data from the ground controll not from radar)

4. the transparent distance meter is also incorrect it does not show distance whatsoever

I am not a perfectionist I would be happy if LN fixed the first one, which is most annoying and makes the game unusable, and if they have some time between two professional discussions with "real mig-21 pilots" they could also fix the 4th one which would be a great help.:thumbup:

[sissypilot]

Whazup people? Any progress? Or LN is busy to launch an other half (and never ever to be) finished product or what? :)

[Cobra847]

Whazup people? Any progress? Or LN is busy to launch an other half (and never ever to be) finished product or what? :)

 

No, no progress at all, as always. We might hold off on the second F-14 engine on release too.

 

Also, I do wonder where the missing half of the MiG-21 has gone. Really wanted to release that part.

Perhaps we have a backup laying around somewhere.

[PiedDroit]

No, no progress at all, as always. We might hold off on the second F-14 engine on release too.

 

Also, I do wonder where the missing half of the MiG-21 has gone. Really wanted to release that part.

Perhaps we have a backup laying around somewhere.

:megalol:

 

But, now be serious, it really happens to lose whole chunks of code because of carelessness! Do backup and use proper SCM! The world is counting on you! <insert uncle Sam recruitment picture here>

[Cobra847]

:megalol:

 

But, now be serious, it really happens to lose whole chunks of code because of carelessness! Do backup and use proper SCM! The world is counting on you! <insert uncle Sam recruitment picture here>

 

Until recently all of our internal repositories were stored on a dinky little box with an ancient 120GB platter.

The HDD gods have spared us, thus far.

 

That and a ton of local copies spread over 4 countries. :)

Edited May 30, 2015 by Cobra847