[EVALUATING] ASP for A-2-A gun use incorrect / Radar

[Art-J]

To sum it up, In my opinion, providing two gunsight options - the one with gameplay-friendly, though not realistic features and the one more historical, would be the best option to satisfy all customers. I think it worked well with braking & turning issue we had.

 

One might argue, that it's partially possible already - if someone doesn't want to have CCIP solution calculated by gunsight during ground attacks, as the real unit could not do such thing, he can just flip the CU15 switch to "manual", set angular correction by CU25 knob manually and try to hit something as the real pilots had to do. It's exactly what we do in Belsimtek's F-86 module, after all.

 

Out of curiosity, I tried to do just that. I don't know what angles are correct for S-5 rockets, but seeing little "5M" and "5K"white stencils written on the knob, and a little, white pointer painted on the gunsight base right next to the knob, I set it accordingly. Unfortunately, looks like the pipper depression caused by this manual adjustment was much too low, compared to depression calculated by CU15 "arcade-auto" mode. Same story with GSh-23 cannon, which also has its stencil marked on the knob.

 

The pipper movement itself in manual mode, compared to rotation of the red, angle correction scale seems to be modelled almost correctly - 20 mils on the net corresponds to about 1.15 degrees on the scale. I say "almost", because it seems to be closer to NATO mil (20 mils = 1.13 deg) rather than Warsaw Pact mil (20 mils = 1.2 deg). I would expect it to be the other way around in Soviet, Cold War era airplane ;).

 

But maybe the stencils on the knob are not painted in the right place, which makes correct manual adjustment impossible ? I presume when Rudel made texture with them, he wasn't THAT crazy about operational details of the gunsight :D.

 

I also noticed that although gunsight was not in gyro mode during my manual tests, the pipper still jumped a bit up and down a bit, reacting to aircraft pitch changes.

 

If You guys are re-evaluating the gunsight code, and preparing bunch of MiG improvements for DCS2 anyway, these observations might be worth looking into.

 

Cheers!

[Cobra847]

Slewing pipper will be an option in the next patch.

Aiming algorithms have been corrected and now calculate impact point.

 

There's more for the next patch, I will note those down in a fixlist soon.

 

The cockpit is textured by me, and the notches should be correctly spaced.

[Hadwell]

Slewing pipper will be an option in the next patch.

Aiming algorithms have been corrected and now calculate impact point.

 

There's more for the next patch, I will note those down in a fixlist soon.

 

The cockpit is textured by me, and the notches should be correctly spaced.

 

may be kinda off topic, but does this mean you can cage the R-13M1 since you can slew the pipper?

[Art-J]

Slewing pipper will be an option in the next patch.

Aiming algorithms have been corrected and now calculate impact point.

 

There's more for the next patch, I will note those down in a fixlist soon.

 

The cockpit is textured by me, and the notches should be correctly spaced.

 

Happy to hear that. Thanks for keeping the post-release support level that high.

[Toybasher]

Slewing pipper will be an option in the next patch.

Aiming algorithms have been corrected and now calculate impact point.

 

There's more for the next patch, I will note those down in a fixlist soon.

 

The cockpit is textured by me, and the notches should be correctly spaced.

 

That's good. (Even though I have almost no actual expertise in the mig and can hardly take off)

 

You textured the cockpit? You did a great job, but one small issue is a few switches and the gauges are still in Russian, even with the English cockpit.

 

I understand some things are hardly used (Radio self destruct button, has no actual effect ingame aside from killing you radio I think. Emergency Transponder does not seem to do anything either.) but the gauges really should be translated into English. Often I find myself confused and having to keep checking the manual for gauge layout, only to forget something else.

 

Keep up the great work. Even though the mig has some broken/missing features it still is extremely detailed.

[sissypilot]

Has anything happened with this? It is the eights months. I have not played with this game for ages as this ASP issue is so annoying.

[Harle]

Has anything happened with this? It is the eights months. I have not played with this game for ages as this ASP issue is so annoying.

 

LN says we'll have to sit and wait for DCSW2. Another year or so I'm afraid.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Harle

[sissypilot]

Thanks. An other promise, I have tons of them :)

The mods will work without any magic (or extra pay) in DCSW2?

[FSKRipper]

As you can read above it will be fixed in 2.0

 

Don't know why you call it "mods" instead of patch but no, as with other modules with bugs like the SU-25, the Hawk, the C-101 and all the other beta modules plus DCS World itself you won't have to pay an extra dollar. On the backside you won't see a fix for most problems before 2.0

[Toybasher]

http://www.simhq.com/_air14/air_528a.html if you watch the interactive slideshow and read, the old dev's had correct modeling of the RWR, (Lights flickering when locked, and only all 4 when the radar is very close to you when locked.) the SORC "problem light" tone, a fully English cockpit, and "better" looking radar clutter that actually looks like target returns and not "hazy" areas on the radar. You couldn't "Fixate" the beam on the beam rider mode, either.

 

Something I dug up worth a read.

[PiedDroit]

http://www.simhq.com/_air14/air_528a.html if you watch the interactive slideshow and read, the old dev's had correct modeling of the RWR, (Lights flickering when locked, and only all 4 when the radar is very close to you when locked.) the SORC "problem light" tone, a fully English cockpit, and "better" looking radar clutter that actually looks like target returns and not "hazy" areas on the radar. You couldn't "Fixate" the beam on the beam rider mode, either.

 

Something I dug up worth a read.

 

Very useful!

You should put that in a thread dedicated to the SPO, this info is off topic here and will be lost.

Edited July 10, 2015 by PiedDroit

[Harle]

Now that the update is out, has anyone checked if radar assisted gun aiming at airborne target works as it's supposed to?

I'm sure gonna see for myself tonight. Just wondering if anyone tested it yet.

 

P.S.

Do I need to lock the target on radar in order to get the firing solution?

[Nerd1000]

Now that the update is out, has anyone checked if radar assisted gun aiming at airborne target works as it's supposed to?

I'm sure gonna see for myself tonight. Just wondering if anyone tested it yet.

 

P.S.

Do I need to lock the target on radar in order to get the firing solution?

 

I tested it. It definitely works, but only when you have a radar lock.

[Dugong]

Yup the AA gun radar ranging does seem to work fine now. It does seem to stop working when you get too close to the enemy aircraft, not sure if it's supposed to be like that or not.

 

But, it seems like the asp pipper now does nothing in air to ground mode with either guns or bombs. Rockets seem to work fine, but with bombs the pipper just locks itself to a point on the lower right of the glass and doesn't move at all. With guns the pipper seems to point to the wrong side of the asp glass, as if the aiming calculation is accidentally inverted in the horizontal plain.

[Harle]

Yup the AA gun radar ranging does seem to work fine now. It does seem to stop working when you get too close to the enemy aircraft, not sure if it's supposed to be like that or not.

 

But, it seems like the asp pipper now does nothing in air to ground mode with either guns or bombs. Rockets seem to work fine, but with bombs the pipper just locks itself to a point on the lower right of the glass and doesn't move at all. With guns the pipper seems to point to the wrong side of the asp glass, as if the aiming calculation is accidentally inverted in the horizontal plain.

 

AA gun radar ranging is supposed to work reliably no closer than 600 m. and no farther than 2000 m.

 

There's no CCIP bomping pipper in real mig-21. That was just an arcage gameplay cheat.

 

I didn't get around to doing AG guns, but AG rocket aiming seems to work fine.

[Dugong]

Ah okay thanks Harle, didn't realize that the previous CCIP was a cheat.

 

Did we ever get to a conclusion on how the ASP actually functions in real life for the various modes?

 

From testing Air to Ground, It would seem for rockets, in AUTO mode the asp behaves in a CCIP manner in both gyro and msl modes, and it doesn't seem to matter if radar is on/off/fixed beam (the intercept angle knob still doesn't move as it says it should in the manual).

 

For guns though, i can't really tell if its working at all. It doesn't seem to calculate aim point at all in the horizontal axis, and the vertical aiming point doesn't seem much better. I find it much easier to aim the gun with the fix net at the moment.

 

Thankfully though the AA modes seem to be working as intended.

[Nerd1000]

Ah okay thanks Harle, didn't realize that the previous CCIP was a cheat.

 

Did we ever get to a conclusion on how the ASP actually functions in real life for the various modes?

 

From testing Air to Ground, It would seem for rockets, in AUTO mode the asp behaves in a CCIP manner in both gyro and msl modes, and it doesn't seem to matter if radar is on/off/fixed beam (the intercept angle knob still doesn't move as it says it should in the manual).

 

For guns though, i can't really tell if its working at all. It doesn't seem to calculate aim point at all in the horizontal axis, and the vertical aiming point doesn't seem much better. I find it much easier to aim the gun with the fix net at the moment.

 

Thankfully though the AA modes seem to be working as intended.

 

A2G guns mode works for me. make sure the ASP and selector switches are set up like in the attached screenshot (except the weapon knob and the IR/SAR mode switch- they're irrelevant to guns mode, so you can put them where you like).

Edited October 5, 2015 by Nerd1000

[Neuman]

It would be nice to smooth changes Target Size (S/LAlt+S), becouse if I use the keyboard instead of the joystick axis target size move too sharply

[Kobymaru]

Yup the AA gun radar ranging does seem to work fine now.

Hi, what is "working fine"? I mean, how do I use it correctly? I don't know how to hit targets even with the Radar lock. Could somebody explain?

[Harle]

Hi, what is "working fine"? I mean, how do I use it correctly? I don't know how to hit targets even with the Radar lock. Could somebody explain?

 

Nothing is working fine. He meant that the radar lock just kinda started feeding range data to the pipper. That's all. Does it help aiming? No! Just another botched attempt at fixing the ASP.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2507514&postcount=2

[Wizard_03]

Nothing is working fine. He meant that the radar lock just kinda started feeding range data to the pipper. That's all. Does it help aiming? No! Just another botched attempt at fixing the ASP.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2507514&postcount=2

 

The Rounds are on target now, they fixed the calculation issues, tried it over and over again, and I've each time been accurate. You can use a radar lock for ranging, however its not like F-86, the sapphire has a very small FOV so if the target moves outside it you lose the lock. Its also not good for maneuvering targets, because it does not auto lock them, and is not look down shoot down so the second they go under you lose the lock. The radar is very primitive.

 

Your better off using manual mode and filling the pipper like the Mig-15, or using the net ( epically in any turn over 4ish Gs and the pipper hits the end of glass and/or the radar loses lock). so using the radar for gun fights is not practical. But they were fixing the calculation issues and they did, if you have the right wingspan and the the target fills the pipper you've got a kill, and the radar ranging is also implemented.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Wizard_03

[Harle]

The Rounds are on target now, they fixed the calculation issues, tried it over and over again, and I've each time been accurate. You can use a radar lock for ranging, however its not like F-86, the sapphire has a very small FOV so if the target moves outside it you lose the lock. Its also not good for maneuvering targets, because it does not auto lock them, and is not look down shoot down so the second they go under you lose the lock. The radar is very primitive.

 

Your better off using manual mode and filling the pipper like the Mig-15, or using the net ( epically in any turn over 4ish Gs and the pipper hits the end of glass and/or the radar loses lock). so using the radar for gun fights is not practical. But they were fixing the calculation issues and they did, if you have the right wingspan and the the target fills the pipper you've got a kill, and the radar ranging is also implemented.

 

I never said anything about using it against maneuvering targets. I'm well aware that radar ranging was never meant for that.

I was talking about hitting a big-ass IL-76 flying in a straight line at 600-1100 m while maintaing radar lock. Bullets just go over it regardless of the wingspan setting.

[Wizard_03]

I never said anything about using it against maneuvering targets. I'm well aware that radar ranging was never meant for that.

I was talking about hitting a big-ass IL-76 flying in a straight line at 600-1100 m while maintaing radar lock. Bullets just go over it regardless of the wingspan setting.

 

Ok gotcha, well like I said, I tried it both ways. To test the radar ranging I used a B-52 and the radar read me the range and the pipper expanded accordingly until I about ran into him. (Just like in A2G mode) I tried shooting at a couple different ranges and got him more or less every time, and the bullets were striking where the pipper dot was for me. At what range did you open up on the IL-76?

 

Honestly though In my humble opinion its more trouble then its really worth friend, I don't see the advantage of using the radar for gun sighting even on big fat slow mo fos. Its less accurate (because the radar is slaved to the target and has move with it, and the radar itself moves in and out with the nose cone, your moving hes moving yada yada.) and you have to watch the scope so you don't lose the lock and keep you eyes on the ASP sight at the same time and if he turns more then a couple degrees you lose it anyways. I suppose you could use the radar to get an idea on range but again, whats the point? by the time you get a lock, you can almost see the target visually anyways.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Wizard_03

[Harle]

Ok gotcha, well like I said, I tried it both ways. To test the radar ranging I used a B-52 and the radar read me the range and the pipper expanded accordingly until I about ran into him. (Just like in A2G mode) I tried shooting at a couple different ranges and got him more or less every time, and the bullets were striking where the pipper dot was for me. At what range did you open up on the IL-76?

 

Honestly though In my humble opinion its more trouble then its really worth friend, I don't see the advantage of using the radar for gun sighting even on big fat slow mo fos. Its less accurate (because the radar is slaved to the target and has move with it, and the radar itself moves in and out with the nose cone, your moving hes moving yada yada.) and you have to watch the scope so you don't lose the lock and keep you eyes on the ASP sight at the same time and if he turns more then a couple degrees you lose it anyways. I suppose you could use the radar to get an idea on range but again, whats the point? by the time you get a lock, you can almost see the target visually anyways.

 

Care to share a video where you shoot an IL-76 with radar lock at distances no closer than 600 m?

[Golo]

Tested it too set guns, wingspan, radar lock on An-26, piper on and all shots went above no mater distance.

For hits I had to aim in the middle of the upper half of the piper.