purpose for sparrows?

[SilentGun]

So sparrow's are basically used in DCS for a friendly in trouble and needs help.

[GGTharos]

I suppose that's a fine historical account if you're stuck in the 70's with regards to missile technology.

 

To my mind, BVR weapons are a good idea that never really showed the results we wanted. This is why the F-4E wound up with an internal cannon.

[will-]

Aim-7's do their job in my playbook. Always take 2.

 

120c's inver to chaff great BVR. Nice PK once visual (trackIR zoomed).

 

Aim7's Flood mode. Once visual (trackIR zoomed)., Added bonus if target is jamming, using their radar.

 

120b's Poor BVR, Good inside 10nm for maneuvering targets. accpt chaff.

 

Now each russian missile is almost a counter part, just played differently. You could essentially make it a RPG with stats for these things. I did become alarmed when they made units (vehicles) with HP's..IMO. Good thing this game isnt like that.

[PFunk]

I suppose that's a fine historical account if you're stuck in the 70's with regards to missile technology.

 

I'm just looking at how history has thus far played out. I am fine with the modeling of the AIM-120 because I think it represents truly what the effectiveness of BVR combat is in a real-life setting.

 

The Russian missiles are optimistic.

 

I cite this man's War College paper on BVR combat as my reference.

 

http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf

[104th_Maverick]

Very interesting read, thanks for sharing!

 

Aim7's area awesome btw!

 

I never leave the ground without 2 onboard!

 

Flood mode FTW!

[Altimaden]

talking WVR, would an aim7 guided in flood mode be more effective than an aim9? from rear on obviously you would have the added stealth advantage with the heat seeker, but flood does have it's no lock tone benefit...does an aim7 launched in flood mode give a launch warning to the target?

also, in a head to head, which missile is better? which turns best?

[TAW_Blaze]

I'm just looking at how history has thus far played out. I am fine with the modeling of the AIM-120 because I think it represents truly what the effectiveness of BVR combat is in a real-life setting.

 

The Russian missiles are optimistic.

 

I cite this man's War College paper on BVR combat as my reference.

 

http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf

 

It's quite logical that IR guidance was far more successful in the past. It's using a natural property of the enemy against it and it gives away no real indication of the launch other than a lock or the smoke trail. It is also launched more often in a position where the other guy can't do much to dodge it, this simply comes from the design.

 

On the other hand you have medium/longe range missiles mostly using radar guidance as IR is unreliable at such ranges. Many of these missiles are fired not with the purpose of hitting the enemy, but to threaten him, to force him into certain positions which benefit you, whatever your objective is. The target also usually has an easier time detecting these launches, this combined with the extended range he can run away, and provided he ran early enough that will always result in a kinematic defeat.

 

Overall I think it's pretty moot to compare their pK just like that, they are two completely different type of weapons with different purposes. IR missiles are like a knife in a gun fight, surely you should have one, but if you left your gun home you'd better be a sneaky ****er. :D

[pyromaniac4002]

talking WVR, would an aim7 guided in flood mode be more effective than an aim9? from rear on obviously you would have the added stealth advantage with the heat seeker, but flood does have it's no lock tone benefit...does an aim7 launched in flood mode give a launch warning to the target?

also, in a head to head, which missile is better? which turns best?

 

Depends on how close you are. If you're chasing a guy trying to burn his way out of danger, AIM-7 could be better, but if you're close enough or you're in a turning fight you'll want the smaller, more maneuverable missile.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Depends on how close you are. If you're chasing a guy trying to burn his way out of danger, AIM-7 could be better, but if you're close enough or you're in a turning fight you'll want the smaller, more maneuverable missile.

 

AIM-7's are too easily spoofed from rear aspect, and if you are low too it's just a waste of money. Get close enough to launch IR or get a gun solution.

[GGTharos]

FLOOD gives lock done. If it doesn't in-game, that's a bug. It should also give a launch tone to be consistent.

 

talking WVR, would an aim7 guided in flood mode be more effective than an aim9? from rear on obviously you would have the added stealth advantage with the heat seeker, but flood does have it's no lock tone benefit...does an aim7 launched in flood mode give a launch warning to the target?

also, in a head to head, which missile is better? which turns best?

[GGTharos]

Err, the F-22 can cue a 9X from the radar, which means it can launch as far as radar gimbals. The doors opening isn't a big deal - it's only a few seconds and the RCS change is mostly from the side, not the rear.

 

And it's WVR anyway, at those ranges stealth isn't. LOAL is also not so great, but that'll come with 9X Block 3 IIRC; no IRSTs or helmets required. Maybe not even radar, just data link. ;)

[TAW_Blaze]

This is the biggest issue with the F22 at the moment. It is to much a BVR machine. While it can launch AIM9X it is currently missing JHMCS and thus does not have High off-boresight ability. There for, the f22 must get the intended target close to the HUDS FOV to launch an aim9x. On a keynote the weapons bay must be opened and the missile pushed out for lock on thus exposing the f22 to radar emission from either ground or a trailing bogey. My wonder is when the f22 will be upgraded with an IRST to allow JHMCS which in turn will allow HOBS launches of the aim9x with out needing to expose the aim9x then lock on and finaly fire.

 

Sorry for rambling off topic.

 

Point is, the Raptor can go close enough that the enemy won't be able to dodge any missiles launched from there.

 

About the weapon bay, no it isn't much of a concern, it's open for too little time to make anything happen.

[104th_Maverick]

If it doesn't in-game, that's a bug.

 

Flood has never given a lock or launch tone in the game... ever.... not even in FC2!

 

I'm surprised you're unaware of this, I remember telling you about it a long time ago :)

[GGTharos]

;2260668']Flood has never given a lock or launch tone in the game... ever.... not even in FC2!

 

That is most definitely incorrect. FLOOD used to work fine once upon a time.

 

I'm surprised you're unaware of this, I remember telling you about it a long time ago :)

I figured it'd be fixed by now. I don't use the great white hope.

 

I've put the bug in.

Edited December 12, 2014 by GGTharos

[104th_Maverick]

That is most definitely incorrect. FLOOD used to work fine once upon a time.

 

Maybe in FC1 mate (showing your age :D)... Flood has never given lock or launch warning in FC3... that is most definitely correct.

 

I'm also pretty sure you will struggle to find someone who will back you up about it working in FC2 as none of my guys can ever remember it happening... and all we do is fly MP!

[Cali]

In FC1 and 2 FLOOD would give a lock tone. I haven't played FC3 much, so I don't know how it works.

[104th_Maverick]

Yeah Cali you are right, in FC2 it was lock only tone but no launch tone from Flood, its all coming back to me now :)

 

In FC3 its search only tone for target.

[pauldy]

Kinda OT but definitely related to the Sparrow.. I remember in my Jane's F/A-18 Days wherein the AIM-7 had a LOFT launch mode.

The AIM-7 (any variant) will climb up to very high altitude after launch for the purpose of increasing it's range.

It looks quite spectacular, but in reality was far less effective in hitting targets even if they were bombers...

 

I wonder if the Eagle has this option for the Sparrow.. or if such launch mode even existed in Real Life...

Edited December 13, 2014 by pauldy

[Zilch]

I'm late to this party, but I've had some success with the Sparrow in WVR fights. I accidentally loaded four of them instead of 120's, and ended up in a merge with eight assorted AI-driven -29's and -27's.

 

I managed to splash six of them, getting a higher chance of hit with the -7 in FLOOD mode than I had with the Sidewinders. If I remember correctly, I was using the -9's from the rear quarter and didn't get many hits. The Sparrows, though...they did the job. It's probably not supposed to happen that way, but it did.

[Pilotasso]

The sparrows were successfully used in real combat after the sidewinders had failed to down their prey. So no, it's not that unrealistic.

[ramrunner800]

I'm just looking at how history has thus far played out. I am fine with the modeling of the AIM-120 because I think it represents truly what the effectiveness of BVR combat is in a real-life setting.

 

The Russian missiles are optimistic.

 

I cite this man's War College paper on BVR combat as my reference.

 

http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf

 

This paper is an analysis of the effectiveness of BVR combat during the Cold War, which significantly skews the conclusions in a WVR direction. BVR effectiveness in Vietnam is measured at 0.7%, and climbs pretty much exponentially to 18% in Desert Storm. BVR technology and tactics did not stop in 1991.

 

Six of the AMRAAM's 7 kills against Serbian aircraft were MIG 29's, hardly slouches.

 

While your analysis of BVR combat throughout history is unquestionably accurate, it seems greatly skewed as improvements in BVR effectiveness are recent, and significant.

[NakedSquirrel]

Aim-7 doesn't go pitbull and accidently hit friendly aircraft. I always carry at least one Sparrow in my loadout just in case I have friendly aircraft around the enemy I'm trying to kill

[GGTharos]

Aim-7 doesn't go pitbull and accidently hit friendly aircraft.

 

Neither do 120's. Are you referring to the 120 losing datalink and thus having to choose for itself?

 

I always carry at least one Sparrow in my loadout just in case I have friendly aircraft around the enemy I'm trying to kill

 

Why are you shooting at all in that case?

[blkspade]

Neither do 120's. Are you referring to the 120 losing datalink and thus having to choose for itself?

 

 

 

Why are you shooting at all in that case?

 

Yeah in game, the 120 picks a target at random in all scenarios. Something I rarely do just recently was STT a target and fire between 4-6nm head on. Said target was chasing a friendly with about 2nm separation. 120 went for the friendly right off the rail with solid lock on the bandit.

[GGTharos]

That isn't random. That's your friendly having same/similar RCS at shorter distance.

 

Having said that, yes, the in-game AIM-120's don't have the more complex logic for choosing targets when M-Link is active.

 

Thanks for pointing this out, I'll make a report of it since it's very easy to demonstrate.

 

Yeah in game, the 120 picks a target at random in all scenarios. Something I rarely do just recently was STT a target and fire between 4-6nm head on. Said target was chasing a friendly with about 2nm separation. 120 went for the friendly right off the rail with solid lock on the bandit.