SilentGun Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 So sparrow's are basically used in DCS for a friendly in trouble and needs help. Link to my Imgur screenshots and motto http://imgur.com/a/Gt7dF One day in DCS... Vipers will fly along side Tomcats... Bugs with Superbugs, Tiffy's with Tornado's, Fulcrums with Flankers and Mirage with Rafales... :)The Future of DCS is a bright one:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I suppose that's a fine historical account if you're stuck in the 70's with regards to missile technology. To my mind, BVR weapons are a good idea that never really showed the results we wanted. This is why the F-4E wound up with an internal cannon. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will- Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Aim-7's do their job in my playbook. Always take 2. 120c's inver to chaff great BVR. Nice PK once visual (trackIR zoomed). Aim7's Flood mode. Once visual (trackIR zoomed)., Added bonus if target is jamming, using their radar. 120b's Poor BVR, Good inside 10nm for maneuvering targets. accpt chaff. Now each russian missile is almost a counter part, just played differently. You could essentially make it a RPG with stats for these things. I did become alarmed when they made units (vehicles) with HP's..IMO. Good thing this game isnt like that. Intel i9-9900K 32GB DDR4, RTX 2080tiftw3, Windows 10, 1tb 970 M2, TM Warthog, 4k 144hz HDR g-sync. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFunk Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I suppose that's a fine historical account if you're stuck in the 70's with regards to missile technology. I'm just looking at how history has thus far played out. I am fine with the modeling of the AIM-120 because I think it represents truly what the effectiveness of BVR combat is in a real-life setting. The Russian missiles are optimistic. I cite this man's War College paper on BVR combat as my reference. http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104th_Maverick Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Very interesting read, thanks for sharing! Aim7's area awesome btw! I never leave the ground without 2 onboard! Flood mode FTW! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad www.104thPhoenix.com www.facebook.com/104thPhoenix My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altimaden Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 talking WVR, would an aim7 guided in flood mode be more effective than an aim9? from rear on obviously you would have the added stealth advantage with the heat seeker, but flood does have it's no lock tone benefit...does an aim7 launched in flood mode give a launch warning to the target? also, in a head to head, which missile is better? which turns best? Opinions expressed here are subjective and redundant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAW_Blaze Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I'm just looking at how history has thus far played out. I am fine with the modeling of the AIM-120 because I think it represents truly what the effectiveness of BVR combat is in a real-life setting. The Russian missiles are optimistic. I cite this man's War College paper on BVR combat as my reference. http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf It's quite logical that IR guidance was far more successful in the past. It's using a natural property of the enemy against it and it gives away no real indication of the launch other than a lock or the smoke trail. It is also launched more often in a position where the other guy can't do much to dodge it, this simply comes from the design. On the other hand you have medium/longe range missiles mostly using radar guidance as IR is unreliable at such ranges. Many of these missiles are fired not with the purpose of hitting the enemy, but to threaten him, to force him into certain positions which benefit you, whatever your objective is. The target also usually has an easier time detecting these launches, this combined with the extended range he can run away, and provided he ran early enough that will always result in a kinematic defeat. Overall I think it's pretty moot to compare their pK just like that, they are two completely different type of weapons with different purposes. IR missiles are like a knife in a gun fight, surely you should have one, but if you left your gun home you'd better be a sneaky ****er. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyromaniac4002 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 talking WVR, would an aim7 guided in flood mode be more effective than an aim9? from rear on obviously you would have the added stealth advantage with the heat seeker, but flood does have it's no lock tone benefit...does an aim7 launched in flood mode give a launch warning to the target? also, in a head to head, which missile is better? which turns best? Depends on how close you are. If you're chasing a guy trying to burn his way out of danger, AIM-7 could be better, but if you're close enough or you're in a turning fight you'll want the smaller, more maneuverable missile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svend_Dellepude Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Depends on how close you are. If you're chasing a guy trying to burn his way out of danger, AIM-7 could be better, but if you're close enough or you're in a turning fight you'll want the smaller, more maneuverable missile. AIM-7's are too easily spoofed from rear aspect, and if you are low too it's just a waste of money. Get close enough to launch IR or get a gun solution. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Win10 64, Asus Maximus VIII Formula, i5 6600K, Geforce 980 GTX Ti, 32 GB Ram, Samsung EVO SSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 FLOOD gives lock done. If it doesn't in-game, that's a bug. It should also give a launch tone to be consistent. talking WVR, would an aim7 guided in flood mode be more effective than an aim9? from rear on obviously you would have the added stealth advantage with the heat seeker, but flood does have it's no lock tone benefit...does an aim7 launched in flood mode give a launch warning to the target? also, in a head to head, which missile is better? which turns best? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Err, the F-22 can cue a 9X from the radar, which means it can launch as far as radar gimbals. The doors opening isn't a big deal - it's only a few seconds and the RCS change is mostly from the side, not the rear. And it's WVR anyway, at those ranges stealth isn't. LOAL is also not so great, but that'll come with 9X Block 3 IIRC; no IRSTs or helmets required. Maybe not even radar, just data link. ;) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAW_Blaze Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 This is the biggest issue with the F22 at the moment. It is to much a BVR machine. While it can launch AIM9X it is currently missing JHMCS and thus does not have High off-boresight ability. There for, the f22 must get the intended target close to the HUDS FOV to launch an aim9x. On a keynote the weapons bay must be opened and the missile pushed out for lock on thus exposing the f22 to radar emission from either ground or a trailing bogey. My wonder is when the f22 will be upgraded with an IRST to allow JHMCS which in turn will allow HOBS launches of the aim9x with out needing to expose the aim9x then lock on and finaly fire. Sorry for rambling off topic. Point is, the Raptor can go close enough that the enemy won't be able to dodge any missiles launched from there. About the weapon bay, no it isn't much of a concern, it's open for too little time to make anything happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104th_Maverick Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 If it doesn't in-game, that's a bug. Flood has never given a lock or launch tone in the game... ever.... not even in FC2! I'm surprised you're unaware of this, I remember telling you about it a long time ago :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad www.104thPhoenix.com www.facebook.com/104thPhoenix My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 (edited) ;2260668']Flood has never given a lock or launch tone in the game... ever.... not even in FC2! That is most definitely incorrect. FLOOD used to work fine once upon a time. I'm surprised you're unaware of this, I remember telling you about it a long time ago :)I figured it'd be fixed by now. I don't use the great white hope. I've put the bug in. Edited December 12, 2014 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104th_Maverick Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 That is most definitely incorrect. FLOOD used to work fine once upon a time. Maybe in FC1 mate (showing your age :D)... Flood has never given lock or launch warning in FC3... that is most definitely correct. I'm also pretty sure you will struggle to find someone who will back you up about it working in FC2 as none of my guys can ever remember it happening... and all we do is fly MP! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad www.104thPhoenix.com www.facebook.com/104thPhoenix My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 In FC1 and 2 FLOOD would give a lock tone. I haven't played FC3 much, so I don't know how it works. i7-4820k @ 3.7, Windows 7 64-bit, 16GB 1866mhz EVGA GTX 970 2GB, 256GB SSD, 500GB WD, TM Warthog, TM Cougar MFD's, Saitek Combat Pedals, TrackIR 5, G15 keyboard, 55" 4K LED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104th_Maverick Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Yeah Cali you are right, in FC2 it was lock only tone but no launch tone from Flood, its all coming back to me now :) In FC3 its search only tone for target. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad www.104thPhoenix.com www.facebook.com/104thPhoenix My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldy Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 (edited) Kinda OT but definitely related to the Sparrow.. I remember in my Jane's F/A-18 Days wherein the AIM-7 had a LOFT launch mode. The AIM-7 (any variant) will climb up to very high altitude after launch for the purpose of increasing it's range. It looks quite spectacular, but in reality was far less effective in hitting targets even if they were bombers... I wonder if the Eagle has this option for the Sparrow.. or if such launch mode even existed in Real Life... Edited December 13, 2014 by pauldy [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilch Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I'm late to this party, but I've had some success with the Sparrow in WVR fights. I accidentally loaded four of them instead of 120's, and ended up in a merge with eight assorted AI-driven -29's and -27's. I managed to splash six of them, getting a higher chance of hit with the -7 in FLOOD mode than I had with the Sidewinders. If I remember correctly, I was using the -9's from the rear quarter and didn't get many hits. The Sparrows, though...they did the job. It's probably not supposed to happen that way, but it did. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Zilch79's YouTube Channel: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotasso Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 The sparrows were successfully used in real combat after the sidewinders had failed to down their prey. So no, it's not that unrealistic. [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic] My PC specs below:Case: Corsair 400C PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T) RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4 GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramrunner800 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I'm just looking at how history has thus far played out. I am fine with the modeling of the AIM-120 because I think it represents truly what the effectiveness of BVR combat is in a real-life setting. The Russian missiles are optimistic. I cite this man's War College paper on BVR combat as my reference. http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf This paper is an analysis of the effectiveness of BVR combat during the Cold War, which significantly skews the conclusions in a WVR direction. BVR effectiveness in Vietnam is measured at 0.7%, and climbs pretty much exponentially to 18% in Desert Storm. BVR technology and tactics did not stop in 1991. Six of the AMRAAM's 7 kills against Serbian aircraft were MIG 29's, hardly slouches. While your analysis of BVR combat throughout history is unquestionably accurate, it seems greatly skewed as improvements in BVR effectiveness are recent, and significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedSquirrel Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Aim-7 doesn't go pitbull and accidently hit friendly aircraft. I always carry at least one Sparrow in my loadout just in case I have friendly aircraft around the enemy I'm trying to kill Modules: A10C, AV8, M2000C, AJS-37, MiG-21, MiG-19, MiG-15, F86F, F5E, F14A/B, F16C, F18C, P51, P47, Spitfire IX, Bf109K, Fw190-D, UH-1, Ka-50, SA342 Gazelle, Mi8, Christian Eagle II, CA, FC3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Aim-7 doesn't go pitbull and accidently hit friendly aircraft. Neither do 120's. Are you referring to the 120 losing datalink and thus having to choose for itself? I always carry at least one Sparrow in my loadout just in case I have friendly aircraft around the enemy I'm trying to kill Why are you shooting at all in that case? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkspade Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Neither do 120's. Are you referring to the 120 losing datalink and thus having to choose for itself? Why are you shooting at all in that case? Yeah in game, the 120 picks a target at random in all scenarios. Something I rarely do just recently was STT a target and fire between 4-6nm head on. Said target was chasing a friendly with about 2nm separation. 120 went for the friendly right off the rail with solid lock on the bandit. http://104thphoenix.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 That isn't random. That's your friendly having same/similar RCS at shorter distance. Having said that, yes, the in-game AIM-120's don't have the more complex logic for choosing targets when M-Link is active. Thanks for pointing this out, I'll make a report of it since it's very easy to demonstrate. Yeah in game, the 120 picks a target at random in all scenarios. Something I rarely do just recently was STT a target and fire between 4-6nm head on. Said target was chasing a friendly with about 2nm separation. 120 went for the friendly right off the rail with solid lock on the bandit. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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