the different between dcs p-51 and real flight?

[Flycat]

My friend said taking off of dcs p-51d is really difficult.

When he push throttle,the torque make him difficult to control the plane,he must push rudder heavily in order to let the plane in right direction.

It means the dcs p-51d is too easy to out of control when it take off. T

he result is the directional stability in dcs p-51d is wrong.

 

But in the real flight video,the pilot could do it easily,the video is this:

 

What's your opinion or any good suggestion?

[Kwiatek]

I also feel that take offs with P-51 or D-9 in DCS are too twichy comparing to real life. I got more problems with nice take offs then with landings. Of course IRL it should be opposite. From my experience with taildraggers landings are much more difficult then take offs and taking offs are fairly easy done.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Kwiatek

[tintifaxl]

Dial in 6degrees of right rudder trim. Be easy on the throttle. Hold the stick back to lock the tailwheel, ease up on the stick ~100mph and most important: keep the tail in check! If the tail starts to swerve in one direction you need to counter immediately with rudder else you'll crash.

 

Then the bird lifts off the runway like a swallow.

[fixen]

I never really set the rudder trim. The way I do it is to hold back the stick (very important) and slowly! Increase thrust. Hold a bit of right rudder to avoid going of the runway. When reaching around 90mph I slowly bring the stick back to the middle. A bit of right stick can also help.

[GrapeJam]

I found the easiest way to take off in the P51D is to take off with at least 3/4 of the throttle height, at this power the torque is much easier to control. Heavy planes like the P51D like high power to take off.

[Kwiatek]

Main difficult with taking off with these planes is time and way of tail wheel rise. You need to be really gently with these and make it in right speed. Most depend of these.

 

Also using take off flaps expecially in P-51 casue strange effects with these planes - never see such IRL where usually flaps help you to take off. With P-51 in DCS it is opposite.

 

Tuco is right these is only PC similation and never be close to RL. So we need to accept some anomalies in game.

[Dalminar]

You need a commercial flight simulator cockpit that moves to simulate the actual plane movement. The best ones even spin around completely in all axis so when you do a roll you are actually upside down.

[Yo-Yo]

Main difficult with taking off with these planes is time and way of tail wheel rise. You need to be really gently with these and make it in right speed. Most depend of these.

 

Also using take off flaps expecially in P-51 casue strange effects with these planes - never see such IRL where usually flaps help you to take off. With P-51 in DCS it is opposite.

 

Tuco is right these is only PC similation and never be close to RL. So we need to accept some anomalies in game.

 

It's an endless item to discuss - ABOUT LACK OF ACCELERATION FEELINGS that makes counteracting of small deviation of an UNSTABLE OBJECT, that plane is, very fast and accurate. In any sim you have to replace it to visual perception.

Those who have a talent to it have no problems at takeoff and consider the planes very EASY to handle.

 

And about the RL - the more you use your experience in RL taildraggers in the sim the less you will be successfull :) I mean this "body feeling" that helps you react at any TENDENCE to break out but not at the break out .

 

 

For those, who have problems handling the plane at TO - the evergreen advice - USE CLOUDS AND THE GUNSIGHT to catch tendencies.

[falcon_120]

It's an endless item to discuss - ABOUT LACK OF ACCELERATION FEELINGS that makes counteracting of small deviation of an UNSTABLE OBJECT, that plane is, very fast and accurate. In any sim you have to replace it to visual perception.

Those who have a talent to it have no problems at takeoff and consider the planes very EASY to handle.

 

And about the RL - the more you use your experience in RL taildraggers in the sim the less you will be successfull :) I mean this "body feeling" that helps you react at any TENDENCE to break out but not at the break out .

 

 

For those, who have problems handling the plane at TO - the evergreen advice - USE CLOUDS AND THE GUNSIGHT to catch tendencies.

 

+1

[Kwiatek]

It's an endless item to discuss - ABOUT LACK OF ACCELERATION FEELINGS that makes counteracting of small deviation of an UNSTABLE OBJECT, that plane is, very fast and accurate. In any sim you have to replace it to visual perception.

Those who have a talent to it have no problems at takeoff and consider the planes very EASY to handle.

 

And about the RL - the more you use your experience in RL taildraggers in the sim the less you will be successfull :) I mean this "body feeling" that helps you react at any TENDENCE to break out but not at the break out .

 

 

For those, who have problems handling the plane at TO - the evergreen advice - USE CLOUDS AND THE GUNSIGHT to catch tendencies.

 

Yo-Yo i could take off P-51 or D-9 quite good enough but for me as RL pilot with some experience with taildragger suprisely in DCS there is obviously more problem to take off correctly then landing. And i really like landings in DCS and as for sim they are quite realistic to me. I dont know why take off in DCS give more problem to do it nicely then landings. Also e.x. using take off flaps in P-51 complicate things a lot comparing to taking off without flaps. Thats why i think something is too crazy with take off in DCS to me.

Everything is quite ok until you try to rise the tail. You need to be really gently and carefully and mostly you need to do it at certain speed. If you do it little earlier or little to late things will complicated a lot.

 

I'm not complaing casue im not able to take off in DCS, i could. Just my observation about taking off and landings behaviour comparing to RL experience.

 

Other hand e.x in the air i think planes are too forgive in spin behaviour. I think planes like P-51 or Fw 190 should be more prone to spin. In DCS i could stall ( in a turn for example) with full deflection of aft stick and keeping it planes don't spin at all. I expected in such situation planes start to spin in the way wing is droping as i still got full stick deflection. Not happened in DCS thought expecially with FW 190 D-9.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Kwiatek

[Yo-Yo]

Yo-Yo i could take off P-51 or D-9 quite good enough but for me as RL pilot with some experience with taildragger suprisely in DCS there is obviously more problem to take off correctly then landing. And i really like landings in DCS and as for sim they are quite realistic to me. I dont know why take off in DCS give more problem to do it nicely then landings. Also e.x. using take off flaps in P-51 complicate things a lot comparing to taking off without flaps. Thats why i think something is too crazy with take off in DCS to me.

Everything is quite ok until you try to rise the tail. You need to be really gently and carefully and mostly you need to do it at certain speed. If you do it little earlier or little to late things will complicated a lot.

 

I'm not complaing casue im not able to take off in DCS, i could. Just my observation about taking off and landings behaviour comparing to RL experience.

 

Other hand e.x in the air i think planes are too forgive in spin behaviour. I think planes like P-51 or Fw 190 should be more prone to spin. In DCS i could stall ( in a turn for example) with full deflection of aft stick and keeping it planes don't spin at all. I expected in such situation planes start to spin in the way wing is droping as i still got full stick deflection. Not happened in DCS thought expecially with FW 190 D-9.

 

It only was my explanation - why you feel TO harder. It's like a bicycle - you use your "automatic system" to hold it straight. Regarding the flaps - the manual directed not to use them in P-51, and the reason is very symple - they helps you get airborne but at the speed your controls is week to counteract the prop effects.

[Kwiatek]

Hard to say truly speaking before my real flying i was playing sims a lot :)

 

BTW what you think about lack of spin behaviour with P-51 and expecially with Fw 190 D-9?

 

I expected more spin tendency during stall occurs with full aft stick. In DCS e.x when i pull hard with stick in a turn plane make some half flick roll then out of stall for a while, im keeping stick back all time and plane make another half flick then again out of stall for a while. I expected plane should got into spin when wing drop in stall and with still full stick back. P-51 is more close to get spin in these situation then Fw 190 D-9. Also planes recover very quickly from such stall ( spin in P-51 case).

[TwoLate]

I never really set the rudder trim. The way I do it is to hold back the stick (very important) and slowly! Increase thrust. Hold a bit of right rudder to avoid going of the runway. When reaching around 90mph I slowly bring the stick back to the middle. A bit of right stick can also help.

I also use this method and works well and the plane lifts off of runway by itself.

[313_Nevo]

Flycat you really disappointed me - "my friend playing DCS says" .. "the YT video says"

I hoped for some real pilot account regarding takeoffs according to the subject of this thread. But I need to wait some more..

 

And well I need to rephrase SiThSpAwN:

...as it sound no more arrogant than thinking you are a P51 takeoff expert because you have a youtube account

 

I also consider the takeoffs more difficult than landings but not because it has some problem with FM, but because I do not pay much attention to them. Why you guys right away think that there is something wrong with the simulation when you are not successful with it? It can also easily says that you are doing something wrong ;)

[=Mac=]

Look at the video that FlyCat referred to. As the pilot comes around for line up, he pulls back to lock the tail wheel. Then, as power comes up, the stick is centered, and there is some right rudder and eventually a bit of right stick. As the KIAS comes up to 80 or 90, the tail lifts when the stick goes FOREWARD.

 

That's not the way it can be done in DCS. I think that is what everyone is talking about.

 

It seems to me that the rudder, even at standstill, has a lot of authority simply because of the prop wash.

[313_Nevo]

The way I do it is to hold back the stick (very important) and slowly! Increase thrust. Hold a bit of right rudder to avoid going of the runway. When reaching around 90mph I slowly bring the stick back to the middle. A bit of right stick can also help.

As the pilot comes around for line up, he pulls back to lock the tail wheel. Then, as power comes up, the stick is centered, and there is some right rudder and eventually a bit of right stick. As the KIAS comes up to 80 or 90, the tail lifts when the stick goes FOREWARD.

 

I don't know, I can be wrong, but I can not see any fundamental difference in these two descriptions.

[Yo-Yo]

Hard to say truly speaking before my real flying i was playing sims a lot :)

 

BTW what you think about lack of spin behaviour with P-51 and expecially with Fw 190 D-9?

 

I expected more spin tendency during stall occurs with full aft stick. In DCS e.x when i pull hard with stick in a turn plane make some half flick roll then out of stall for a while, im keeping stick back all time and plane make another half flick then again out of stall for a while. I expected plane should got into spin when wing drop in stall and with still full stick back. P-51 is more close to get spin in these situation then Fw 190 D-9. Also planes recover very quickly from such stall ( spin in P-51 case).

 

But this half-roll and then self recovering was a documented feature of the real P-51. Regarding 190 - ERich said that he often performed a trick in 190 (A but not in D because there was no necessity to do it due to different tactics): during a turn with an opponent on his 6 he retarded the throttle and pull hard (at 450-500 kph) - the plane rolled out of the turn to the reverse turn, recovered as the stick was released, and after pulling the stick again it performed the same trick getting the position on the 6 of his opponent.

[Holbeach]

It is prop wash, not torque, that causes the initial swing to the left when power is applied. This is easily controlled with a little right rudder and smooth application of power. This effect diminishes as speed increases and the rudder becomes more effective and is gradually eased.

Torque causes the plane to want to roll to the left, this is countered by right stick, which as the speed increases causes adverse yaw, which adds to the left swing tendency and when the wheels come off the runway, is the dominant factor and is countered by trimming the aileron to fly straight and level.

All it needs is a bit more understanding of the principles of flight, less of blaming the aircraft and a bit more practice is all that is required here.

 

:book:.

[Kwiatek]

But this half-roll and then self recovering was a documented feature of the real P-51. Regarding 190 - ERich said that he often performed a trick in 190 (A but not in D because there was no necessity to do it due to different tactics): during a turn with an opponent on his 6 he retarded the throttle and pull hard (at 450-500 kph) - the plane rolled out of the turn to the reverse turn, recovered as the stick was released, and after pulling the stick again it performed the same trick getting the position on the 6 of his opponent.

 

But i suppose that in Fw 190 after doing flick roll he relased stick (center control) to recover before he made another flick roll in opposite side. But i think if stick was still full back plane should not recover and get from stall/flick roll into spin ( or spiral dive) ?

 

P-51 in DCS is more like to do it (spin or spiral dive) with full stick back then D-9. I think D-9 should behave similar in these situation like P-51?

 

I just think that D-9 should got at least similar behaviour with continuously stick back during stall.

 

Regarding P-51 you right, manual says about it: