jfri Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 In the P51D campaign one mission is to do a take off in a 10 m/s crosswind. I have failed that countless times now. Instead of the plane taking of it rolls around and crash. Normal take offs are no problem for me.
strikeeagle Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Stick into the wind... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Chris
Crumpp Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2274219&postcount=395 Download Taildragger Tactics. It has a great section on crosswind landings and take off's. Keep wind corrections in even when taxi'ing and the beginning of your take off roll. Adjust the corrections as the speed increases in the take off roll and add rudder to keep the nose straight. As she unsticks at rotation, Let her bank into the wind and a little rudder to keep the nose aligned with the runway. Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250
Rangi Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Slowly increase speed was the advice that helped me the most. PC: 6600K @ 4.5 GHz, 12GB RAM, GTX 970, 32" 2K monitor.
effte Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 As she unsticks at rotation, Let her bank into the wind and a little rudder to keep the nose aligned with the runway. Posting in a hurry before coffee? :) No, crossed controls after takeoff and on climbout is a Bad Idea and surely not what Crumpp intended to post. After takeoff, you let the aircraft yaw (crab) into the wind and keep the wings level for the climbout. The book linked seems a good one at a quick glance (thanks for the link) and you will find it in agreement. Cheers, /Fred ----- Introduction to UTM/MGRS - Trying to get your head around what trim is, how it works and how to use it? - DCS helos vs the real world.
WildBillKelsoe Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 what a great book. thanks for sharing! AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.
HotTom Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Excellent resource! Thanks, Crumpp! Exceptional engineering...and a large hammer to make it fit!
Crumpp Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Posting in a hurry before coffee? :thumbup: Thanks for correcting that mistake! Absolutely, let her crab into the wind. Edited January 31, 2015 by Crumpp 1 Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250
Crumpp Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 You guys are welcome! Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250
jfri Posted January 31, 2015 Author Posted January 31, 2015 Nothing helps. No matter what I try to do it ends in disaster. And this happens after I get up to speed. I knew that I should try to turn into the wind. BTW at what direction do you take of. Do you turn left or right at the runway from the taxiway to the left of the plane at start ?
Crumpp Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Nothing helps. No matter what I try to do it ends in disaster. And this happens after I get up to speed. I knew that I should try to turn into the wind. BTW at what direction do you take of. Do you turn left or right at the runway from the taxiway to the left of the plane at start ? Make sure you have autorudder and take off assistance unchecked and turned off. The only assistance I got from "take off" assistance was directions to the crash site. Do not do a downwind take off or landing in a taildragger. It will almost always end in disaster. Are you relaxing the stick as speed builds up to lift the tail? Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize: 1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250
effte Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Posting a track is always a good start. It makes it a whole lot easier to see what goes wrong. Rgds, /Fred ----- Introduction to UTM/MGRS - Trying to get your head around what trim is, how it works and how to use it? - DCS helos vs the real world.
jfri Posted February 1, 2015 Author Posted February 1, 2015 Posting a track is always a good start. It makes it a whole lot easier to see what goes wrong. Rgds, /Fred Here is one to.trk
jfri Posted February 1, 2015 Author Posted February 1, 2015 Make sure you have autorudder and take off assistance unchecked and turned off. The only assistance I got from "take off" assistance was directions to the crash site. Do not do a downwind take off or landing in a taildragger. It will almost always end in disaster. Are you relaxing the stick as speed builds up to lift the tail? I have both these features disabled In this mission the runway is at 90 deg angle from the wind Yes relaxing stick
effte Posted February 1, 2015 Posted February 1, 2015 For some reason, I had trouble viewing your track. It replayed differently each time. 10 m/s is a hefty crosswind in a P-51, 20 knots. You must do it right. From what I could see, you had no aileron into the wind? Start out with stick back and into the wind. As speed builds, to somewhat above normal take-off speed, relax back pressure to allow the tail to lift. Relax into-wind pressure as you feel the aircraft wanting to dip the upwind wing, but a slightly wing-low attitude into the wind is preferable to relaxing the control input too much. I'd say it's even desirable to dip the upwind wing, just a degree or three. Speed is your friend. Do not attempt the aircraft to take off for you until you have airspeed aplenty, at which point you decide to take off and make it so. Finally, ground handling still isn't an area where DCS shines. Once you get it sideways, it's Disney on Ice. As long as you keep the aircraft straight, it's OK by now. Acquire a visual reference point in the far field, a cloud or such, and work those pedals to keep it centered. The usual mistake when learning conventional gear is overcontrolling. You need a good amount of pedal to stop a developing swing, but once you've stopped it you have to relax pedal pressure before you see the nose start coming back, or perhaps even before you've arrested the swing completely, or you're setting yourself up for a swerve in the opposite direction. It is doable, but tricky. What are your frame rates like? Slow frame rates won't help a bit. I'm not sure if frame rate issues can cause track replay difficulties on the other end? Cheers, /Fred ----- Introduction to UTM/MGRS - Trying to get your head around what trim is, how it works and how to use it? - DCS helos vs the real world.
jfri Posted February 1, 2015 Author Posted February 1, 2015 For some reason, I had trouble viewing your track. It replayed differently each time. 10 m/s is a hefty crosswind in a P-51, 20 knots. You must do it right. From what I could see, you had no aileron into the wind? Start out with stick back and into the wind. As speed builds, to somewhat above normal take-off speed, relax back pressure to allow the tail to lift. Relax into-wind pressure as you feel the aircraft wanting to dip the upwind wing, but a slightly wing-low attitude into the wind is preferable to relaxing the control input too much. I'd say it's even desirable to dip the upwind wing, just a degree or three. Speed is your friend. Do not attempt the aircraft to take off for you until you have airspeed aplenty, at which point you decide to take off and make it so. Finally, ground handling still isn't an area where DCS shines. Once you get it sideways, it's Disney on Ice. As long as you keep the aircraft straight, it's OK by now. Acquire a visual reference point in the far field, a cloud or such, and work those pedals to keep it centered. The usual mistake when learning conventional gear is overcontrolling. You need a good amount of pedal to stop a developing swing, but once you've stopped it you have to relax pedal pressure before you see the nose start coming back, or perhaps even before you've arrested the swing completely, or you're setting yourself up for a swerve in the opposite direction. It is doable, but tricky. What are your frame rates like? Slow frame rates won't help a bit. I'm not sure if frame rate issues can cause track replay difficulties on the other end? Cheers, /Fred I could watch my track file without problem. Any way I attach a new one were I tried to think about your suggestion. Still no success. I noticed that plane started to turn before sufficient speed for take of. Staying on runway when this happen is the problem. Either my effort to counteract isn't sufficient or the plane over reacts to the other side. xwindto.trk
Tucano_uy Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Please see this: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2221647#post2221647 and this (track with a 50m/s crosswind takeoff): http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2221266#post2221266
Eros Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Hello, The video you posted is a 5m/s crosswind takeoff. The mission attached at the end is a mission setup to try a 50m/s for fun.(not so much :mad: ) :D If you type DCS P-51 10m/s crosswind in youtube you will find 2-3 videos showing takeoff landing and taxi. There is one that shows the input from controls so you can see his input movements :joystick: 335th_GREros [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
jfri Posted February 2, 2015 Author Posted February 2, 2015 Hello, There is one that shows the input from controls so you can see his input movements :joystick: To me he does not seem to use ailerons into the wind. And only small input on rudder. My attempt to fly like him ended in disaster as before
HotTom Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) Remember the wind is pushing the tail, not the nose, and the wind is thus forcing the nose into the wind. So, if the wind is blowing from right to left, your nose will want to drift to the right (into the wind). To correct for this, you need to use rudder to steer left (the same direction the wind is going) and stay straight. It's a tough concept to get your head around but once you figure it out, it will quickly become intuitive. Otherwise, follow the instructions in the P-51D manual: Accelerate slowly and hold the stick back for an exaggerated period of time to keep the tail wheel down until you are sure you have good rudder authority. Then let the stick up gradually as you apply rudder in the direction the wind is blowing (not where it's coming from). Hope that helps. Edited February 3, 2015 by HotTom Exceptional engineering...and a large hammer to make it fit!
jfri Posted February 2, 2015 Author Posted February 2, 2015 Please see this: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2221647#post2221647 After reading that thread two things strikes me I have always assumed that the wind is coming FROM 17 deg as that is RW way to interpret direction. It is stated to use full back stick
Tucano_uy Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 The idea of the full back stick, is to keep the tail wheel firmly on the ground. Keep in mind that for the control surfaces to be efficient you need airspeed, if the tail wheel leaves the ground with too little airspeed, the rudder will not be efficient and will not have enough authority to counteract the wind, wherever it comes from. It is difficult to explain, it's more of a 'feeling' when taking off, when to transition and lift the tail wheel. If you are running, with stick full back and the aircraft starts 'jumping' or trying to leave the ground, then is time to relax stick, otherwise it will take off, stall and kaboom... Also, use a low flap setting or no flap. In the technique that I'm describing, you actually want to leave the ground at a higher airspeed (remember rudder authority?) than you would with a calm wind.
WildBillKelsoe Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 this mission appears to be bugged. In the briefing it says winds 017 degrees at 10 m/s, but ATC says wind at 15 m/s. Another thing, if you load the mission into editor, it displays a taxiway as "takeoff from runway". Another thing, I just tried a takeoff from the western end (IE 090) but runway is marked with a "10" from that end. Oh, and just to make it clear, 017 degrees is the direction the wind is blowing from, which means taking off from the eastern end with added rudder trim will always produce significant left yaw, with even 8 degrees of right rudder trim. OP, do you have rudder pedals? AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.
jfri Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 this mission appears to be bugged. In the briefing it says winds 017 degrees at 10 m/s, but ATC says wind at 15 m/s. Another thing, if you load the mission into editor, it displays a taxiway as "takeoff from runway". Another thing, I just tried a takeoff from the western end (IE 090) but runway is marked with a "10" from that end. Oh, and just to make it clear, 017 degrees is the direction the wind is blowing from, which means taking off from the eastern end with added rudder trim will always produce significant left yaw, with even 8 degrees of right rudder trim. OP, do you have rudder pedals? Yes I got CH Rudder pedals and Yoke and Throttle quadrant Do you mean I should use 8 degrees right rudder trim. Other posts says the wind direction is the blowing to direction. What are your sources.
WildBillKelsoe Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2069944&postcount=1 The mission editor displays in which direction the wind is blowing to I also have all CH Pro gear. Its funny but are you sure your axes are set up properly and deconflicted? Woops... my bad... I got confused myself. 017 is direction its blowing to. So that means an east to west takeoff would make matters easier. yes, I used it on taking off from east to west facing the sun. Oh, and I don't use elevator trim at all on takeoff. Why not try short takeoff with flaps? In the book dropped the first page in here, you can set it to obtain maximum lift of airfoil by deflecting aileron and matching flap to it. if you have tacview, maybe upload it? sorry my compass if effed-up now.. so when advancing throttle, do you release brakes at 30 manipressure or do you release brakes from 800 RPM? Because I release brakes at 30 manipressure and initially, she tends to drift right, then crossing 35-38 manipressure it comes to left... Edited February 3, 2015 by WildBillKelsoe AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.
Recommended Posts