Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[Frusheen]

I completely missed that post likely due to the formatting! My apologies Milopapa. In that context your comment does make sense.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Frusheen

[Milopapa]

Sorry guys, it was a bit too late for me to elaborate. All's well that ends well I guess :)

[S3NTRY11]

This email has made my day!! :D:D:D

Hopefully, soon you will have some better videos of DCS World in the HTC Vive to view!!

(And By the way, for those who are wondering, I was just playing around with differing formats in my previous post :smartass:)

Congrats! Let us know how it goes!

[MemphisBelle]

This email has made my day!! :D:D:D

Hopefully, soon you will have some better videos of DCS World in the HTC Vive to view!!

 

Just a question that answering could be interesting to answer a certain question to me.

 

You seem to be way more HTC Vive Fan than an Occlus Rift Fan. What makes you sure that the Vive is generally the better VR Set?

I am not asking because because I might be a OR Fanboy, I am asking because I just dont know which one to pick. You seem to be the one with the answer :D

[AstroEma]

Am I going to be the first one to try it out with DCS? :music_whistling::music_whistling:

Edited March 25, 2016 by AstroEma

[Quantenpresbyterianer]

Am I going to be the first one to try it out with DCS? :music_whistling::music_whistling:

Did you receive it? Did you receive it? Did you receive it?

Tell us quickly!!!!!!! Please!!!!!

OMG OMG

 

Gesendet von meinem HUAWEI MT7-L09 mit Tapatalk

Edited March 25, 2016 by Quantenpresbyterianer

[MemphisBelle]

[...]

Thanks a lot for sharing your detailed view on this subject. Espacially the last part is somethings I worry much about and cant wait to experience in the same time. I nonetheless think I keep waiting untill enough experience reports are available to finally make a decision.

[AstroEma]

Yep, recieved it a few weeks ago.

Didn't have time to set it up until today.

Seriously awesome. Completely different experience from the Rift.

 

How do I set it up with DCS?

 

 

Did you receive it? Did you receive it? Did you receive it?

Tell us quickly!!!!!!! Please!!!!!

OMG OMG

 

Gesendet von meinem HUAWEI MT7-L09 mit Tapatalk

[RabidRider]

@DigitalEngine

 

Only thing that keeps me from getting the Vive is that is doesn't support Asynchronous timewarp.

[Frusheen]

@DigitalEngine

 

Only thing that keeps me from getting the Vive is that is doesn't support Asynchronous timewarp.

 

That was the biggest drawback for me as well. I can't see how dcs will be playable at 90hz without it. The valve answer of waiting for frame time to reach 11ms and then lowering resolution seems far less elegant on paper. I also don't think it's implemented yet.

[Chivas]

The Oculus PC SDK v1.3 implements Asynchronous Timewarp (ATW) on Windows. With the latest drivers and hardware, we reduce judder, deliver consistent low latency, and improve efficiency. All apps benefit from this without having to do anything special.

[triarii]

so will vive work with the current DCS 1.5 or 2 that we have now or will we need to waiton an update from ED?

[AstroEma]

Actually, have been playing all the VR games/demo in steam since yesterday and there's absolutely no latency in the headset and the controllers.

Much better resolution as well for some reason (same specs on paper)

[NakedSquirrel]

That was the biggest drawback for me as well. I can't see how dcs will be playable at 90hz without it. The valve answer of waiting for frame time to reach 11ms and then lowering resolution seems far less elegant on paper. I also don't think it's implemented yet.

 

How does the time warp work in comparison?

 

Is the Vive just adding lower frames between full res frames to 'fill the gap'?

 

It does seem like a game breaker if you can't play DCS at lower frames. Especially when it comes to multiplayer.

[S3NTRY11]

The valve answer of waiting for frame time to reach 11ms and then lowering resolution seems far less elegant on paper. I also don't think it's implemented yet.

I'd say that would be in-engine too, wouldn't it, and not part of the SDK? Lowering resolution might work ok for some first-person experiences, but I don't think it's going to cut it for simulations like DCS.

 

Going to be very interesting to see how this plays out, not that I think TW is a silver bullet, but every little is going to help when it comes to DCS framerates.

 

Interesting quote from here:

However, ATW is not a silver bullet. Failing to maintain a consistent, full frame rate may produce visible artifacts including noticeable positional judder, particularly in the near field of view. An application that falls below 90fps rendering will get re-warped in time to avoid rotational judder, but while orientation latency is kept low and smooth, animation and player movement may judder in lock-step with missed frames. For these reasons we continue to recommend that developers do not rely on ATW to save them from low frame rate.

 

The best, most immersive and comfortable experience for users runs consistently at 90fps and developers should target this frame rate aggressively.

Edited March 26, 2016 by S3NTRY11
Added Oculus quote

[AlbertKart]

I'm not a software developer so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

Valve's GDC 2016 presentation seems to imply that asynchronous timewarp is in-fact supported by the HTC Vive at the API level.

 

 

The latest SteamVR changelog also mentions it

 

Honestly, I'm not sure what the difference is between "Asynchronous Reprojection" and "Interleaved Reprojection Hint". Valve's description of Interleaved Reprojection makes it sound identical to what Oculus has been calling "Asynchronous Timewarp", albeit locked to 45fps and limited to rotation only.

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what we call the method as long as the end result is a smooth and playable experience. I'd be great if someone could try the Vive with DCS World and check. Sims are much much heavier than the "Made for VR" games/demos so even if these are smooth, we can't be sure that DCS World will run great too.

Edited March 26, 2016 by AlbertKart

[AstroEma]

For anyone waiting for their Vive, I can confirm that DCS 1.5.3 supports it without any problems.

And it is a way better experience than using the Rift.

No judder, no latency of any kind, and the feeling of being in the cockpit is seriously incredible.

 

Only thing is that when in the cockpit the position of the virtual camera is a bit too far back, and almost flushed with the backrest of the seat.

I can somewhat read the MFDs in the A10, and most of the gauges. But in no way the engraved panels can be read.

In the Mirage, while the cockpit is perfect in 3D, there's no way to read most of the instruments or MFDs.

 

All in all, a heart racing experience but no way usable for mission flying.

[RabidRider]

What about FOV and screen door effect?

[AstroEma]

FOV is slightly less than the Rift but very slightly. Can't see any screen door effect. Lenses on the Vive are different than on the Rift. They have a circular pattern.

[Frusheen]

How does the time warp work in comparison?

 

Is the Vive just adding lower frames between full res frames to 'fill the gap'?

 

It does seem like a game breaker if you can't play DCS at lower frames. Especially when it comes to multiplayer.

 

I absolutely hate judder. I fly helicopters in dcs and get enjoyment out of flying as precisely as possible. For me judder makes that impossible. Both headsets have methods for reducing judder and maintaining 90hz. The thing with ATW is that it is ready to go day 1 with with the Rift CV1. A lot of what I'm reading with Vive is that their cool stuff is yet to be implemented and sound more like they are designed for games built from the ground up for VR.

 

Here is some light reading on ATW on the Rift:

 

https://developer.oculus.com/blog/asynchronous-timewarp-examined/

 

The Vive:

 

I won't try and type out an explanation as I'm on mobile but a quick search shows this good explanation:

 

https://m.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/2yp10s/valve_opts_out_of_time_warp/

 

"Valve opts out of time warp.

 

During the presentation Alex Vlachos talked about predicting the position and orientation of the user based on current movement and synchronizing the prediction with the presenting the frame.

 

A rule of thumb for prediction is that the shorter time you have to predict the closer to correct your prediction will be. Oculus also does prediction but in tandem with time warp. With time warp Oculus has correct sensor data about 5ms before the frame is presented versus Valve's about 18ms.

 

But Valves approach, though inherently less accurate, is not without its merits. Without time warp many of pixels around the fringe of the FOV becomes unnecessary and doesn't need to bee rendered. This allows Valve to use a stencil mesh that excludes these from the pipeline, effectively reducing the number of pixels that needs to be rendered on the Vive with 17% resulting in a huge performance gain. With time warp, these pixels might be put in view of the user and so they have to be rendered.

 

It's a trade of between correct and efficient, the jury is out on which approach is the better."

 

Due to the high demands of dcs and the issues with even getting a locked 75fps on the lower res dk2 I think ATW may prove to be a better solution. Im not confident that the fewer pixels rendered by the Vive will be enough to compensate for the current frame rate limitations in dcs.

 

I'm not knocking Vive. Valve have their own methods in the works for maintaining 90hz by scaling resolution, dropping pixels from the periphery of the image and replacing them with neighboring pixels and other cool stuff. I just feel in dcs where the scene never changes as dramatically as some other games that ATW will be better. I wanted a good experience day 1.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Frusheen

[AlbertKart]

The Vive:

 

I won't try and type out an explanation as I'm on mobile but a quick search shows this good explanation:

 

https://m.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/2yp10s/valve_opts_out_of_time_warp/

 

"Valve opts out of time warp.

 

During the presentation Alex Vlachos talked about predicting the position and orientation of the user based on current movement and synchronizing the prediction with the presenting the frame.

 

Take in mind that the above presentation by Vlachos is a year old now. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it seems like Valve has now implemented a system similar to rotation "timewarp" and called it "Interleaved Reprojection". It looks like this feature is enabled at the OpenVR API level so all Vive supporting games should be able to use it without significant changes, although Valve really wants it to only be used as a last resort when 90fps can't be maintained.

 

I'm curious at how well this feature compares to Oculus's ATW (which works very well judging from the feedback with it on the DK2). We really can't tell until more people report back on their DCS experiences with the Vive.

 

Again, I'm not a software developer so the above is just my understanding of the situation.

Edited March 26, 2016 by AlbertKart

[Frusheen]

Take in mind that the above presentation by Vlachos is a year old now. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it seems like Valve has now implemented a system similar to rotation "timewarp" and called it "Interleaved Reprojection". It looks like this feature is enabled at the OpenVR API level so all Vive supporting games should be able to use it without significant changes, although Valve really wants it to only be used as a last resort when 90fps can't be maintained.

 

I'm curious at how well this feature compares to Oculus's ATW (which works very well judging from the feedback with it on the DK2). We really can't tell until more people report back on their DCS experiences with the Vive.

 

Again, I'm not a software developer so the above is just my understanding of the situation.

 

likewise. I based my purchase decision on what I've read from others as well. Valve themselves stated that ATW was the ideal solution - interleaved reprojection is not the same thing. The differences are explained in the gdc talk. They stated interleave reprojection, is compatible with a wider variety of hardware which is why they chose it. ATW required changes by Microsoft to the Windows operating system for example.

 

I want to reiterate guys I'm not knocking the Vive. I just wanted the best experience I could get as soon as I could get it. In the long run Vive may well be better. For my use in dcs at the time I ordered, for me, rift had the better tech on paper.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Frusheen

[Chivas]

For anyone waiting for their Vive, I can confirm that DCS 1.5.3 supports it without any problems.

And it is a way better experience than using the Rift.

No judder, no latency of any kind, and the feeling of being in the cockpit is seriously incredible.

 

Only thing is that when in the cockpit the position of the virtual camera is a bit too far back, and almost flushed with the backrest of the seat.

I can somewhat read the MFDs in the A10, and most of the gauges. But in no way the engraved panels can be read.

In the Mirage, while the cockpit is perfect in 3D, there's no way to read most of the instruments or MFDs.

 

All in all, a heart racing experience but no way usable for mission flying.

 

Way better than the Rift? Do you me the DK2, or do have you the Rift CV1 already?

[AstroEma]

Have the DK2 and tried the CV1 extensively.

I didn't see that much difference in the DK2 and CV1 at least in the applications I tried a few months ago (last November)

Judder has always been a problem and didn't see it resolved in the CV1. Again in the applications I was using and with older runtime perhaps. Maybe the code changed lately and they solved the issue.

Keep in mind I am using those HMDs for serious simulation (project I am doing in my company) so you milage may vary for normal gaming.

 

 

 

Way better than the Rift? Do you me the DK2, or do have you the Rift CV1 already?

[hansangb]

Thanks AstroEMA. I have both on order so I'll see if I experience the same thing.