is wing vortices be represented for the F-14?

[hannibal]

you know everyone in their moms will be breaking the sound barrier when the tomcat/bombcat is release...

 

im yet to see wing vortices appear from the leading edge slats of the plane's wings on released teaser dcs world 2 photos...

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2015 by hannibal

[mvsgas]

How many thread do you have to make to ask the same questions we know the answer to?

How many times has this been ask?

[beaupower32]

Someone just craving attention.

[hannibal]

naa.

 

dont care for attention.

i just want to fly the tomcat in VR,

and see vapor forming around the cockpit, or to see other players break mach 1, and show that effect.

 

i hope EDGE DCS World 2 will allow it for the already available flaming cliffs 3 fighters, because DCS world one already has nice vortices on the wing tips...

 

LETS GIVE SOME VORTICES TO THE LEADING EDGE WING SLATS

[Aginor]

Most of the time you won't notice him breaking the sound barrier. Only in very humid air.

[strikeeagle]

I'm 100% sure that Strike Eagle is no where near super sonic. Awesome pic though.

[Dudikoff]

LETS GIVE SOME VORTICES TO THE LEADING EDGE WING SLATS

 

It obviously needs to be supported by the base game so there's really no reason to insist on pushing this on a module forum.

[fgffgfgg]

Alright so what you are thinking of are not called wingtip vortices. See the clouds coming off of the wingtip of the f 18? Those are wingtip vortices. They are already in and appear at high g loads. Second the f 18 isn't experiencing the condensation caused by near mach 1 speeds either, those clouds are also because of high g loading.

[7rooper]

Yeah, right. This have been asked many times but we don't have an official answer. It is been rumored that these effects will be generated by the EDGE engine and not embedded in the plane model

[Demongornot]

The latest video from EDGE that we have is the Mig-15Bis trailer :

 

There is bench of hard turns and we don't see any wing vapour...

So sadly i think the answer is NO, we won't have them supported in DCS World 2.0, at least probably not in the first releases...

A third party aircraft CAN have it regardless if DCS World 2.0 "support" (include) it because it is only a simple visual effect, and there was one year ago someone who was doing a mod for this and who have manage to successfully implement it, so yes it is possible even if ED don't do it by default...

What i don't understand is why ED put the small and almost useless wingtips vortex and not this, after all even if it have to be adapted to each aircraft, it won't be SO long, just have to set the effect emitter at the leading edge of the wing exactly like the wingtips variant is the same for each aircrafts...

 

Alright so what you are thinking of are not called wingtip vortices. See the clouds coming off of the wingtip of the f 18? Those are wingtip vortices. They are already in and appear at high g loads. Second the f 18 isn't experiencing the condensation caused by near mach 1 speeds either, those clouds are also because of high g loading.

 

Not entirely true !

There is not 2 or 3 but 5 different things !

First, you are right about the wingtips vortex, they are actually in the game, its the small vapour at the wingtips edge of our wings.

Perfectly visible here in this F-15E : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/F-15_wingtip_vortices.jpg

 

Second, well the vapour we see on the wing of most aircraft that experience high G turn or sometime only high AOA in high humidity (already saw several video of Hornet having this while on final approach for carrier landing, which is slow speed), yes those are not at all mach effect and are not vortex !

They are probably caused by a huge turbulence because of the stall of the upper air flow that mix with the non-stalled air against the upper wing (that's why they appear on high incidence and not only while the aircraft stall)

Easily seen here on this Rafale : http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/30/article-0-0EFE8DC300000578-780_964x576.jpg

Here seen from the Hornet while approaching on a carrier, end of the video :

We can also notice wingtips vortex all time during this phase while wing vapour flickering, also various vapour during the flight itself.

 

Also, there IS a vortex in the picture of the Hornet, the airflow that come from the leading edge extension just under the canopy create a huge vortex that is identical in the way he is created than the on from the wingtips, the Hornet is one of the rare aircraft that have this, his is technically not a wingtips vortex even if it work the same way.

Easily seen here on this F/A-18C Hornet and we can easily see how the vapour turn inside the vortex : http://members.chello.nl/j.meijers3/F-18-Vapour.jpg

Here in this F/A-18E Super Hornet video we can see the huge vortex that create the Hornet while turning, unlike the two previous one, he appear less easily on low speed/aoa (even if he can sometimes be seen on landing or at low lower speed if the weather is humid enough), but he need less humidity to be seen since this is a brutal vortex that cause this, look at 1:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb1W4O_IWZI

And it look like it apparently disappear on too high AOA

 

The Fourth is the famous mach cone effect that appear on aircraft near Mach 1 (not on supersonic but in transonic area because even flying at subsonic speed some aircraft have supersonic airflow around some part or subsonic around others while supersonic)

Can be seen in this Tomcat video :

Or in this picture : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/soupic/soubar2.jpg

 

And finally the fifth, because there is another transonic vapour effect, it look like the one we see on wings when turning at high angle of attack (the second i talk about), but it only appear on transonic regime.

Can be seen in this F-35 (yuck :D) https://i.imgur.com/kjR4gqm.jpg

And in this Tomcat picture : http://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/12/26/75/01/f-14_t10.jpg

Also in the video of the Transonic Tomcat we can see it in plus of the huge sonic cone around the aircraft !

 

 

Also note that the two first time i have talking about are easy to see in almost every aircraft, even airliner during landing have this !

http://video.airlineratings.com/140102Emirates777wakevortex_airratings.jpeg

Notice how the "wingtips vortex" appear from the edge of the FLAPS and not from the edge of the wings, even without a winglets !

Yes even the Space Shuttle had this : http://images.gizmag.com/hero/space-shuttle-10.jpg

All this are of course without forgetting the vapour that come out of the engines when at high enough altitude !

 

And yes it need humidity but NOT it don't need A LOT of humidity !!!

Even if the middle of the desert of the Nevada they can still appear, PROOF here :

Look at 2:25 and 2:45, yes is it not huge, but he don't take a huge turn neither !

So yes maybe their is clouds but it appear in the NEVADA which is a desert, and desert are know to be arid, mainly on the middle of the day !

So there is no "humidity" argument that can be valid against this !

Death Valley weather : http://traveltips.usatoday.com/weather-climate-death-valley-california-59328.html

You will also notice pictures and video of aircraft that have vapour during the Red Flag exercise ! (will be hard to find picture of high G turn from Red Flag)

Sometime its to dry but there is a lot of time we can still see it !

 

 

Sorry for the wall of text for well, correct explanation can't be shorter...

[fgffgfgg]

The latest video from EDGE that we have is the Mig-15Bis trailer :

 

There is bench of hard turns and we don't see any wing vapour...

So sadly i think the answer is NO, we won't have them supported in DCS World 2.0, at least probably not in the first releases...

A third party aircraft CAN have it regardless if DCS World 2.0 "support" (include) it because it is only a simple visual effect, and there was one year ago someone who was doing a mod for this and who have manage to successfully implement it, so yes it is possible even if ED don't do it by default...

What i don't understand is why ED put the small and almost useless wingtips vortex and not this, after all even if it have to be adapted to each aircraft, it won't be SO long, just have to set the effect emitter at the leading edge of the wing exactly like the wingtips variant is the same for each aircrafts...

 

 

 

Not entirely true !

There is not 2 or 3 but 5 different things !

First, you are right about the wingtips vortex, they are actually in the game, its the small vapour at the wingtips edge of our wings.

Perfectly visible here in this F-15E : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/F-15_wingtip_vortices.jpg

 

Second, well the vapour we see on the wing of most aircraft that experience high G turn or sometime only high AOA in high humidity (already saw several video of Hornet having this while on final approach for carrier landing, which is slow speed), yes those are not at all mach effect and are not vortex !

They are probably caused by a huge turbulence because of the stall of the upper air flow that mix with the non-stalled air against the upper wing (that's why they appear on high incidence and not only while the aircraft stall)

Easily seen here on this Rafale : http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/30/article-0-0EFE8DC300000578-780_964x576.jpg

Here seen from the Hornet while approaching on a carrier, end of the video :

We can also notice wingtips vortex all time during this phase while wing vapour flickering, also various vapour during the flight itself.

 

Also, there IS a vortex in the picture of the Hornet, the airflow that come from the leading edge extension just under the canopy create a huge vortex that is identical in the way he is created than the on from the wingtips, the Hornet is one of the rare aircraft that have this, his is technically not a wingtips vortex even if it work the same way.

Easily seen here on this F/A-18C Hornet and we can easily see how the vapour turn inside the vortex : http://members.chello.nl/j.meijers3/F-18-Vapour.jpg

Here in this F/A-18E Super Hornet video we can see the huge vortex that create the Hornet while turning, unlike the two previous one, he appear less easily on low speed/aoa (even if he can sometimes be seen on landing or at low lower speed if the weather is humid enough), but he need less humidity to be seen since this is a brutal vortex that cause this, look at 1:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb1W4O_IWZI

And it look like it apparently disappear on too high AOA

 

The Fourth is the famous mach cone effect that appear on aircraft near Mach 1 (not on supersonic but in transonic area because even flying at subsonic speed some aircraft have supersonic airflow around some part or subsonic around others while supersonic)

Can be seen in this Tomcat video :

Or in this picture : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/soupic/soubar2.jpg

 

And finally the fifth, because there is another transonic vapour effect, it look like the one we see on wings when turning at high angle of attack (the second i talk about), but it only appear on transonic regime.

Can be seen in this F-35 (yuck :D) https://i.imgur.com/kjR4gqm.jpg

And in this Tomcat picture : http://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/12/26/75/01/f-14_t10.jpg

Also in the video of the Transonic Tomcat we can see it in plus of the huge sonic cone around the aircraft !

 

 

Also note that the two first time i have talking about are easy to see in almost every aircraft, even airliner during landing have this !

http://video.airlineratings.com/140102Emirates777wakevortex_airratings.jpeg

Notice how the "wingtips vortex" appear from the edge of the FLAPS and not from the edge of the wings, even without a winglets !

Yes even the Space Shuttle had this : http://images.gizmag.com/hero/space-shuttle-10.jpg

All this are of course without forgetting the vapour that come out of the engines when at high enough altitude !

 

And yes it need humidity but NOT it don't need A LOT of humidity !!!

Even if the middle of the desert of the Nevada they can still appear, PROOF here :

Look at 2:25 and 2:45, yes is it not huge, but he don't take a huge turn neither !

So yes maybe their is clouds but it appear in the NEVADA which is a desert, and desert are know to be arid, mainly on the middle of the day !

So there is no "humidity" argument that can be valid against this !

Death Valley weather : http://traveltips.usatoday.com/weather-climate-death-valley-california-59328.html

You will also notice pictures and video of aircraft that have vapour during the Red Flag exercise ! (will be hard to find picture of high G turn from Red Flag)

Sometime its to dry but there is a lot of time we can still see it !

 

 

Sorry for the wall of text for well, correct explanation can't be shorter...

 

Thanks for the very in depth explanation, I tried to sum it up as quickly as I could on my phone figuring someone would go more in depth :P

[hannibal]

Demongornot

thank you for taking the moment to share your thoughts.

 

i can only hope ED will have vapor form on the leading edge slats of the wings of fast planes..

 

im liking that you see reflections of the roofs of buildings.. its those little things that make the simulation more immersive.

 

anywho, i am content that the fact that the F14 is being developed!

[TIMBER SOUR]

What does any of this have to do with leading edge slats? The only aircraft pictured in the OP that even has slats is the Tomcat, and they're retracted.

 

Maybe you mean LEX/LERX/strakes, etc.? In any event, there are plenty of opportunities for better vapor and atmospheric effects...but I imagine that it's a graphics engine feature that ED needs to support internally as opposed to a hacked effect created by a third party. Look at the RATO pods for the FISHBED...cool, but kinda half-baked without ED providing proper support for the effects.

[hannibal]

nope. i meant leading edge slats. i meant to include that on the title thread, left it out, attempted to start another thread with the correct title, but the moderator deleted the correct title..

 

lead edge slats are the part of the wing next to the fuselage. we already have nice wing tip vortices in DCS world 1, i hope they include it vortices at the leading edge slats in dcs world 2.

[TIMBER SOUR]

Just so you know, what you seem to be describing are not slats. Slats are secondary control surfaces on the leading edge of the wing that increase the camber of the wing and energize the boundary layer to increase stall AoA.

 

They're usually - though not always - full-span, and can be found on airplanes like the F-14, A-6, F-111, Tornado, and even late-model F-86s. They're also found on most transport/commercial aircraft, like the C-5, KC-10, MD-80, and dozens of others.

 

Slats differ in operation from Leading Edge Flaps (LEF), which can be found on most newer fighters like the F-16, F/A-18, F-35, F-22, and others. Some airplanes don't have any sort of leading edge devices at all, like the F-15, CRJ-200, and every turboprop I can think of.

 

The point is, you keep using the very specific term "leading edge slats", but I don't think that's what you mean. The vapor forming structures you're describing are usually called Leading Edge Extensions (LEX) or Leading Edge Root Extensions (LERX), or informally "strakes".

[captain_dalan]

Maybe he means the wing gloves or the glove vanes?

[Agg]

It seems like he's thinking about the LEX/LERX, certainly not slats... But I do agree that some more vapor would be awesome.

[hannibal]

thank you guys for the clarification.

yea, what ever the beginning of the wing where it meets the fuselage...that area.

 

we will see what dcs world 2 has in store for us!

[Demongornot]

There is two different things :

 

All things that are directly on the leading edge of the aircraft's wings, most of the time all the length of the wing, those can be slats, leading edge flaps and others methods, they are used to make the aircraft more resistant to stall and able to flight slower or at higher angle of attack !

 

And there is the leading edge root extension also know as the LERX which is probably what you talking about Hannibal !

 

But all those, leading edge flaps, slats and LERX are ALL call Leading Edge Extension which is the name of all aerodynamic structure (mobile or not) on the leading edge of the wing...

 

This is probably why there is so much confusion here, probably because Leading Edge Extension and Leading Edge Root Extension have almost similar names !

__________________________________________________________________

 

 

For those who want explanations :

The most encounter and popular one is the Slats, this is what we see on almost every aircraft, they can be both fix or mobile.

Here is a popular variant that is mobile, they slip forward and the F-14 Tomcat have them :

http://img.webme.com/pic/i/impossibletechnology/flap.jpg here on a airliner (easy to see)

Here on the tomcat : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/US_Navy_040608-N-0382O-001_Aviation_Structural_Mechanic_Airman_Jason_Powers_and_Aviation_Structural_Mechanic_3rd_Class_Daniel_Johnson_conduct_final_checks_of_the_wings_and_flaps_of_an_F-14B_Tomcat.jpg

(From above it can look like Leading Edge Flaps, but they are Leading Edge SLATS)

And they are easy to find cause a lot of aircraft have them, here on a C-5 Galaxy :

http://api.ning.com/files/ed7g22tBiTkmALoYqe1gPdYRwagfdSCihwBWtN4vIxzhibeFxNBxwg1wVc2FSSyjeDIjidIA94I8PqKfjyMJOf-yX3ZTJZ1j/osh2010m.jpg?width=721

And they are all automated !

I THINK (i'm not sure at all) with airliners and small aircraft supposed to flight "correctly and smoothly" they are commanded with the flaps handle and come in the same time, and fighters, since they will turn hard, they are commanded by the computer that will operate them base on angle of incidence (maybe base on the airflow and not on the trajectory for aircraft that can get the airflow direction information) and the speed, since their goal will be to make your aircraft turn harder without stalling !

Some can be manual but i think this is not common

 

 

Some like the one of the Bf-109 (the most popular of the kind) are operated automatically by the air, a mix between pressure and depression will open them !

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Slat_of_Bf_109_G-6_2012-01-28.jpg

 

 

We can also find the same system but static, they don't move and the angle of attack of the wing is what is important :

http://www.supercub.com/images/recd/800x800/slatView.jpg

They work like this : http://www.zenithair.com/stol/gif/slats.gif

They are also call fixed slot and can be consider as different from the standard moving Slat.

 

 

There is another type which is popular on the airliners, slats are not the only, there is also the Krueger Flaps (that are not Leading Edge Flaps)

They are popular on huge aircraft, like the Boeing 747 for example, they are stuck on the lower part of the leading edge and deploy by pivoting forward, like this :

http://cfile230.uf.daum.net/image/127D115A4DE245230E98C1

And they look like this :

http://www.mikejamesmedia.com/modo_media/b747_8_Airframe_067.jpg

Here a beautiful video that show it :

On this 737 and we can see the mechanic for the leading edge Krueger and main flaps, beware of the volume ! Its loud !

Here on the 747

And this beautiful picture here : http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/6/7/3/1236376.jpg

 

 

And there is the Leading Edge Flaps that are popular on modern fighters, in this design the whole front part of the leading edge goes down exactly like regular flaps.

For the example on the F-16 it does like this :

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1920477&d=1379184723

Easily noticeable here : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/F16_SCANG_InFlight.jpg

We can clearly see the leading edge is angled down !

And yes the Su-27 also have them :D

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IXrko2a8uwU/TxRghtFzCzI/AAAAAAAAAps/tJzknBkkhCQ/s1600/Su-27%2BFlanker%2BLong-Range%2BFighter%2BAircraft.jpg

We can see them moving in DCS

Easily spottable here too : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Sukhoi_Su-27UB_Belyakov.jpg

 

All those are high lift device that help to reduce stall by lowering stall speed and augmenting stall incidence !

 

 

 

The Leading Edge Root Extension is different, this is something really easy to see on the F-18, the famous extension of the wing that come under the canopy !

Where the big vortices come from on the OP picture !

And a lot of aircraft including the Tomcat, but also the F-15, the F-16, the Su-27 and more have this !

The Space Shuttle is also a nice example !

 

And aircraft like the T-50 in plus of his Leading Edge Flaps have Leading Edge Root Extention Flaps :D

 

And the Leading Edge extension also count others devices such as the Vortex Generator, this :

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/javelin/javelin_18.jpg

Popollar on the Harrier, all those small tooth :

http://aircraft-photographs.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gatwick-RAF-hawker-harrier-gr3-nose.jpg

Also popular on the Hawk and T-45 cause easily seen from the cockpit !

They generate small vortex that help the the upper air layer to stick on the upper part of the wing !

 

There is also another family that is composed of things like...

dogtooth leading edge, popular on fighters, also other design that we can see here : http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/vortex/devices.jpg

More info of what they do here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_fence

Edited March 8, 2015 by Demongornot

[TIMBER SOUR]

tl;dr

 

Not everything attached to the leading edge of a wing is called a "leading edge extension", not sure where you got that from? Maybe its a language thing?

 

I grant you that all of the different secondary flight control surfaces on the leading edge (slats, LEFs, Krueger flaps, slots..) can be generically referred to as Leading Edge Devices (LEDs).

 

But again, that's American Aviation English. Maybe that translates into something different in other languages.

[Demongornot]

Probably because you did not read :lol:

 

Technically the name is self explanatory, every appendices that are on the leading edge are by description Leading Edge Extensions !

 

All the LEDs like you say such as the fixed slot, slats, Kruegers and Leading Edge Flaps are all extensions to the leading edge, aerodynamic extensions and this is logic that they can be call LEXs

 

For the Leading Edge Root Extensions, well i think the name itself already explain everything, root or not, its a leading edge extension, and i think the problem come from here, people everywhere including in the professional world have probably start to call the LERX LEXs because it is shorter, we see this kind of problem everywhere, for example in computer, we should not say Bytes but Octets while talking about 8 bits, and not Megaoctets but Mebioctets which is the correct multiple of 2...

And the LERX are structural extensions.

 

For all the others apex like the dogtooth or the fences, well they are also on the leading edge and they are also extensions, so again it seam logic for me to call them LEXs

 

The only exception is maybe the Vortex Generators since, even they are often see over the leading edge, the are not always at this place...

 

But technically even if you strap a grandma on your leading edge, she will be referenced as Leading Edge Extension :D

 

I think LEXs are the main name for all things, LEDs are a subcategory, LERX well it is its own category and the others things like dogtooth or fences, i don't know the real name of the category but they are probably Leading Edge Modifications...

 

And well, i know that Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but look :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading-edge_extension

The first image easily explain everything...

 

I have no real reference about this but i think that technically this is the best way to name all this things...

[TIMBER SOUR]

Ok, Chief.