[REPORTED] Flaps Down Warning sound

[NineLine]

Thanks!

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Thanks for the manual. But your german is slightly imprecise.

the manual states:

 

The signalhorn sounds when the landing gear is not locked anymore and simultaneously the flaps are extended(not mentioned if partially or completely extended).

The signalhorn is only good to hear at idle.

 

So to fix our problem, the engine needs to be louder if not at idle setting...

 

 

Fox

 

This is to be found on page 13 (page number of the scanned document) in the linked manual from above:

 

FoxRomeo and Golani79 thanks for your help .. and excuse me, my German is very basic.

Edited March 23, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[iFoxRomeo]

Ah so horn should sound even as gear descends? I think it shuts off in the sim as soon as gear starts to move down doesnt it?

And you are saying the manual states that the signal horn is only good to hear at engine idle? And has nothing to do with the position of the throttle?

 

I only saw the English translation, can you post the full German text about this with your translation if you dont mind?

 

As Golani posted the text already, I guess it´s okay if I don´t post it.

 

Yes, good to hear while the engine is at idle. That leads to: worse to hear with increasing rpm, but not unhearable at all.

 

Unfortunately the pages 18 and 19 are missing in this flight manual. On page 18 the landing procedure is described, so maybe there is some information about the signal horn too.

 

But with the information given on page 13, the signal horn is only active when the flaps are deployed AND the landing gear travels from extended to retracted(and vice versa). Because only then it is not locked. That would lead to the assumption that the signal horn should be inactive, once the landing gear is retracted and locked, but the flaps are still deployed.

 

 

Fox

[iFoxRomeo]

FoxRomeo thanks for your help .. and excuse me, my German is very basic.

You´re welcome. No need to excuse. The german language has a reputation for being complicated.

 

Fox

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

...

But with the information given on page 13, the signal horn is only active when the flaps are deployed AND the landing gear travels from extended to retracted(and vice versa). Because only then it is not locked. That would lead to the assumption that the signal horn should be inactive, once the landing gear is retracted and locked, but the flaps are still deployed.

 

Fox

 

I've read in several Bf-109 manuals years ago, that the horn sounds only to warn the pilots that the undercarriage is retracted, when the aircraft is trying to land.

Otherwise, if the horn sounds when undercarriage is traveling, it has no sense.

Edited March 23, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[NineLine]

I've read in several Bf-109 manuals years ago, that the horn sounds only to warn the pilots that the undercarriage is retracted, when the aircraft is trying to land.

Otherwise, if the horn sounds when undercarriage is traveling, it has no sense.

 

Yeah, it sort of makes sense to me that it would only sound if the gear was up and the flaps were down, maybe even if the gear was in transition, or failed to lock down?

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Yeah, it sort of makes sense to me that it would only sound if the gear was up and the flaps were down, maybe even if the gear was in transition, or failed to lock down?

 

that's right SiThSpAwN

The airplane has different micro switches to undercarriage locked up and locked down, and this switch on the red and green lights of the undercarriage indication, ..and the horn too.

Someone was posted years ago the Bf-109E wiring diagram for this issue in the IL2- Clod.

But now I can not find it

Edited March 23, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[NineLine]

Yes, wiring diagram would probably go a long way, not sure if ED has anything like that, they might already.

[iFoxRomeo]

I've read in several Bf-109 manuals years ago, that the horn sounds only to warn the pilots that the undercarriage is retracted, when the aircraft is trying to land.

Otherwise, if the horn sounds when undercarriage is traveling, it has no sense.

 

Yeah, it sort of makes sense to me that it would only sound if the gear was up and the flaps were down, maybe even if the gear was in transition, or failed to lock down?

 

Yep, absolutely. That wouldn´t make sense at all. That´s why I said according to the take off part, because the page with the landing procedure is missing.

 

But I searched a little bit deeper. And on the webpage where the G2 manual is from, I got the manual for the F1, with the following:

 

"Das Signalhorn für die Fahrwerks-Warnanlage ertönt, wenn das Fahrwerk bei angestellten Wölbungsklappen noch eingefahren oder nicht vollständig ausgefahren ist und erinnert den Flugzeugführer nochmals an das Ausfahren des Fahrwerks."

 

So now it makes sense because:

 

"The signalhorn for the landing gear warning device sounds, if the landing gear, with the flaps deflected, is still retracted or not completely extended and reminds the Pilot again to extend the landing gear."

 

Fox

[NineLine]

Perfect, so I am going to alter my report with this information. Thanks guys.

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Yep, absolutely. ...

 

"The signalhorn for the landing gear warning device sounds, if the landing gear, with the flaps deflected, is still retracted or not completely extended and reminds the Pilot again to extend the landing gear."

 

Fox

 

Perfect, so I am going to alter my report with this information. Thanks guys.

 

But,.. we all agree that the horn sounds with the engine idling? yes or not? :(

[NineLine]

But,.. we all agree that the horn sounds with the engine idling? yes or not? :(

 

Well, maybe. Maybe our German speakers can help...

 

"The signalhorn is only good to hear at idle."

 

Does that mean that its only heard at idle because of the position of the throttle or because of the noise level of the engine?

[Solty]

Well, maybe. Maybe our German speakers can help...

 

"The signalhorn is only good to hear at idle."

 

Does that mean that its only heard at idle because of the position of the throttle or because of the noise level of the engine?

 

It would lead me to believe that engine noise is suppressing it, so it not as vivid.

[Crumpp]

Gear warning horns usually do not make any noise until the power is reduced.

 

Power is reduced when on final and typically brought to idle at the flair. That is how they work. You do not land an airplane with high power settings.

 

You do not want the horn going off unless the aircraft is about to land or think it is going to land.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Crumpp

[NineLine]

Gear warning horns usually do not make any noise until the power is reduced.

 

Power is reduced when on final and typically brought to idle at the flair. That is how they work. You do not land an airplane with high power settings.

 

What about people reporting they have heard them in different vids or audio on take off?

[Derbysieger]

Just to make this clear: The translation by iFoxRomeo is correct.

 

So yes, according to these manuals the signal horn should ring as long as you have flaps down while the gear is up and while it is being lowered. As soon as it's down and locked it should stop.

 

It also states that due to the engine's noise, it's only really audible when the engine is in idle

[Crumpp]

If you have the flaps down on th 109 series and you reduce the throttle to low power....the horn should sound. The airplane will think it is about to land gear up.

 

The actual trigger conditions can change depending on the specific design. Quite a few jets just require the thrust to be reduced and a descent.

 

Most Jets actually have a gear horn silence button on the thrust levers opposite the go around button for the flight director because you have to silence that horn so many times on descent and approach. Yes, it is an annoying alarm.

[Crumpp]

In according with the Bf-109G2 manual, flaps horn sounded only when the engine is at idle rpm.

Edited: page 20 in PDF file (page number -13- , point 8. )

""" 8. Signalhorn ertönt, wenn das Fahrwerk nicht mehr eingerastet ist und gleichzeitig die Landeklappen angestellt sind.

Das Horn ist nur bei Leerlauf gut zu hören.""" (thanks to golani79 for his help)

 

 

The flaps horn was to warn of an abnormal landing configuration. This device sounded ONLY with the flaps deployed, engine idling, and undercarriage retracted.

 

That is how it is set up. Having it run all the time does not make any sense. The sentence translates as it heard only at idle....which is true.

 

The horn is only heard at idle because it only works at idle.

 

The sentence is meant for a pilot and does not say the horn operates continuously.

 

The gear horn only sounds at idle just like Otto relates.

[Derbysieger]

Crumpp, I am German and I'm just confirming that the manuals do indeed say that the warning horn was on all the time if the flaps were lowered and the landing gear wasn't down and locked and that it the horn was difficult to hear over the engine noise if it wasn't running in idle.

 

I just wanted to confirm that these translations are correct, nothing more.

 

Edit:

No Crumpp, the correct translation would be "The Horn can only be heard well in idle.", not "The Horn is only heard at idle.". Small but important difference. It's on but as long as the engine is not running in idle it will be hard to hear.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Derbysieger

[Crumpp]

[Crumpp]

Crumpp, I am German and I'm just confirming that the manuals do indeed say that the warning horn was on all the time if the flaps were lowered and the landing gear wasn't down and locked and that it the horn was difficult to hear over the engine noise if it wasn't running in idle.

 

I just wanted to confirm that these translations are correct, nothing more.

 

Edit:

No Crumpp, the correct translation would be "The Horn can only be heard well in idle.", not "The Horn is only heard at idle.". Small but important difference. It's on but as long as the engine is not running in idle it will be hard to hear.

 

It does not mean the horn runs all the time.

 

Point out the specific language that implicitly states the gear horn runs continuously. It does not say that anywhere I can see.

 

It would be the only gear warning horn ever designed that worked that way and defeat the purpose.

[Derbysieger]

It doesn't change the fact that nothing in these manuals indicates that the horn went silent if the engine wasn't in idle. On the contrary, it clearly states that the horn was hard to hear if the engine wasn't running idle.

 

Das Horn ist nur bei Leerlauf gut zu hören.

Correct translation:

The horn can only be heard clearly if the engine is running idle.

 

The way it is worded indicates that it wasn't dependent on throttle setting at all. The only thing important for the horn to be on are flaps lowered and landing gear not down and locked (according to these manuals).

[Crumpp]

I am sorry Derbysinger too. I am not intending to sound harsh or unfriendly! I speak German myself. I do not see where the language says specifically it runs continuously. I am having to type with one finger, too. I am in training for another type rating and only brought my iPad.

[Flagrum]

I am sorry Derbysinger too. I am not intending to sound harsh or unfriendly! I speak German myself. I do not see where the language says specifically it runs continuously. I am having to type with one finger, too. I am in training for another type rating and only brought my iPad.

The emphasis on the part that it is "only" heared "well" when at idle implies that it can be heared also if not at idle - just not as good as otherwise.

 

You are right, it does not mean that it will sound at every throttle setting, but at least it is not limited to only idle.

[Derbysieger]

The only reason I commented in this thread was to clear things up about the correct translation.

 

8. Signalhorn ertönt, wenn das Fahrwerk nicht mehr eingerastet ist und gleichzeitig die Landeklappen angestellt sind.

Das Horn ist nur bei Leerlauf gut zu hören.

 

This quote says it all. According to this two conditions have to be met in roder for the horn to sound:

 

1. Gear up or not locked

2. Flaps down

 

This part only means that it's hard to hear over engine noise, not that the horn doesn't sound anymore:

Das Horn ist nur bei Leerlauf gut zu hören.

 

 

That is all. Maybe the horn stopped at a higher power setting but I heven't found anything in the manuals to indicate this.