Real pilots chime in...

[ronht]

I have over 28,000 hours in various real world airplanes from sailplanes to transport jets and I find the handling characteristics of the Mig 21 to be very realistic and outstanding for a computer simulation.

 

One of the difficult issues for many people who are learning to fly heavy swept wing aircraft versus the straight wing types is the relationship between pitch and power, where pitch becomes your primary speed control and power becomes your primary altitude control.

 

In a heavy swept wing aircraft, target speeds on final approach will vary based on weight. The heavier you are the faster you will need to fly on final and the more power you will need to control the rate of descent. Simply flying the same speed regardless of how the aircraft is loaded and pitching up to flare may only change the angle at which you hit the runway and do little to arrest the descent. Power is the key to controlling the rate of descent once a proper pitch angle is established on the final descent.

 

The other limitations are more to do with how all of this information is being displayed on a 2D computer screen. You simply are not getting all of the information that your senses would be picking up if you were in a real airplane. DCS has done the best job of any home computer simulation I have ever seen in bringing a "real world" feel to actual flying, however, the limitations of reproducing this on a home computer will always be a trade off. As an example, tail wheel aircraft and helicopters in real-life are much easier to take-off and land than in the DCS simulation, NOT because DCS has made it more difficult, or not modeled the effects associated with their flight models correctly, but because you simply cannot get all the sensory input from a 2D computer screen in the same way as you would being in the real thing.

 

I fly the approach in the Mig-21 at 340 - 360 on a 3 degree glide slope (runway just visible over the nose) using the pitch to control the speed and the power to control the rate of descent (typically about 90% with full flaps) Use a small flare just above the runway to arrest your descent, (you will loose forward visibility at this point) so look to the sides (as you would in a taildragger) to keep your alignment with the runway. At this point, squeeze the power off just a little while holding the aircraft level to let the aircraft settle onto the runway - once down, idle thrust, speed brakes, the drag chute and normal braking is all you will need for a controlled rollout.

 

Thanks again to ED, DCS and the third party developers like Leatherneck for making all of this possible.

[sissypilot]

According to russian manuals the approach looks like this:

 

You start at 1000m altitude 500kph and 18-20km away RPM 90-92% flaps half way out try to be at 7m/s vario descend, at 12km you are at 600m speed 450kph RPM 85-87% pull up a little to 5m/s vario, at 6km distance altitude is 300-350m full flaps still 85-87% RPM, final approach 400kph 250m altitude bleed off speed to 330-340 at 70-80m altitude and start flare at that speed do not play with throttle it is at 85-87%.

 

That is what the book says. In reality I found a lot more manageable to approach at a lot higher angle and higher speed almost cut throttle and pull up fast and bleed off speed fast at the end of the approach with added thrust. I think it is quite unrealistic and very unsafe also. In real life you maintain glide path at all cost with a plane like this. In fact to assist with landing pilots always had ground assistance:

This is called RSP радиолокационная система посадки which is short for radilocationing system for landing. During landing you always had a aircraft controller to help you allign and maintain perfect glide path.

 

The pilots liked to joke that with the mig you dont land it is more like a controlled crash :)

Edited April 1, 2015 by sissypilot

[Alexander Seil]

Hi All,

 

I was wondering if anyone out there flies real airplanes? I have a commercial/multi-engine and instrument rating and found the Mig-21 VERY hard to fly. If you can land this thing on the sim I'd fly with any of you any day.

I've noticed I have to come in shallow and fast. Most of the flight simming I've done is on FSX and mostly commercial aircraft. Flying delta wings is a whole new can of worms.

If you are looking for a good text on aerodynamics look no further than Aerodynamics for naval aviators. Its pretty dense but will give you a solid foundation on how these things work. Link here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faa.gov%2Fregulations_policies%2Fhandbooks_manuals%2Faviation%2Fmedia%2F00-80t-80.pdf&ei=6agaVcDFAomyggTs6YFQ&usg=AFQjCNFXCSGy_ocTKzDRrS25SmZJN9cN1w&sig2=fjhpP7pVZRoi2rDodWmxuQ&bvm=bv.89381419,d.eXY

 

This is the bible of aerodynamics.

 

Thanks

 

After multiple attempts, I'm yet to survive a P-51 landing, but worst I have done in a MiG-21 is lose the landing gear, and I'm a complete n00b at flight sims. It's not even that hard to glide down and land relatively safely on grass, should you run out of fuel for 245867th time (though the plane won't be flying away anywhere after that).

 

Perhaps it's the fact that it's so weird that gives people with real-life flight experience a hard time? You're supposed to practically push this thing down onto the runway, and dropping below a certain speed is fatal (the blown flaps turn off). Knowing nothing, I don't have the burden of experience to mislead me ;)

 

In reality I found a lot more manageable to approach at a lot higher angle and higher speed almost cut throttle and pull up fast and bleed off speed fast at the end of the approach with added thrust. I think it is quite unrealistic and very unsafe also. In real life you maintain glide path at all cost with a plane like this.

 

Stuff like this comes down to whether anyone in real life would be able to figure this out without dying first. I'm going to guess that you crashed the plane a few times before figuring out this trick?

Edited April 7, 2015 by Alexander Seil

[PE_Tigar]

I have a CPL and around 400 hours on small planes... and about 15 years of flying simulations, and the first time flying an approach in the MiG I was sure I was going to crash. But nothing happened, I did everything by the book and all was well. That landing speed tho... I remember when I was a kid reading about different fighter planes one thing always stood out for MiG-21 - take-off and especially landing run were extra long! Now I understand why :). The margin of error is very, very low - I find other fast jets with decent FM in the game much easier to land. But then again, they were designed to be nicer on landing, unlike F-104 or our beloved MiG.

 

Also - as learned from a real pilot with a lot of hours on MiG-21MF - watch your AoA and use AoA to get the landing right. Ideal landing speed will increase with weight, but ideal AoA remains the same...

Edited April 9, 2015 by PE_Tigar

[Palmput]

I'm not a pilot, but I have been dabbling in flight sims for a few years. I'm also not sure if I'm just extremely lucky, but I have yet to... fully crash the MiG-21 despite going through several landings without having touched the training missions. The worst I've had was a busted main gear. The speed of the landing wasn't what shocked me, it's the way it responds to quick pitch inputs. It seems to like to go to a high AoA before really responding if you pull hard, even at landing speeds, so an attempted late correction to a low approach will just slam your gear into the runway. You really really have to plan ahead, which is one of the things I've rarely put much effort into with flight sims.

[sissypilot]

Stuff like this comes down to whether anyone in real life would be able to figure this out without dying first. I'm going to guess that you crashed the plane a few times before figuring out this trick?

 

I dont think anyone in real life would risk that for a very practical reason: the Mig's engine responds way too slowly for correcting any errors it is safer to have thrust and play with pitch than other way around like in fast responding prop planes (I flew only prop). Thougj I know that it is possible to land the Mig with an engine out.

 

I think the reason why glide is so important is speed controll: you must be below 300 to land safely and you can not guarantee it with a steep glide and fast pickup at a right place. I regularry land with the sim at 350-380 without any problem which again is quite unrealistic I guess and very dangerous, probably after 2-3 such landing the base commander would make me pay for the tires I ruined :)

[Kroll]

Real pilot here (over 100 aircraft from gliders, props, jets, airliners). This bird has the best flight model in my opinion (love the huey and F-15 too). It's not perfect but it is what I would expect. I cross the fence at 300 keep the power on till touchdown. I make small adjustments in power and pitch to control my sink rate. One way to help with the view is to do a curving base to final (this would be similar to an approach in a Pitts bi-plane). This allows you to see the runway till the flare. I find I keep going back to the Mig-21. Leathernecks did a great job on this module.

[DaveRindner]

Of all the tasks in MIG21. Of noncombat related and flight safety. Landing is the most difficult. Of all the fixed wing aircraft in DCS, IMHO, MIG-21 is most difficult to land. But it is not THAT difficult. Provided grossweight is below landing grossweight, touchdown speed is around 300 kph IAS, landing flaps down, and VV (on variometer) is 2 m/s or less. Meet those parameters and aircraft lands safely. On long runways, break chute is not even needed. Nalchik runway is great to practice on. The 'flare' is really small, just enough to correct VV needle , to .5-2 m/s. If you land long, meaning near runway midpoint, pop the break chute, or perform a go around/missed approach.

 

With 21, your approach IAS is 350 with landing flaps, reducing speed gradually to 300 for touchdown. Keep the rw threshhold just above the nose, gives you correct AOA, at 350 kph approach.

 

I found that MIG21 made me a better lander on other fixed wing ac in DCS.

[terence44]

Here's a landing tutorial i made, it's in Swedish though so you might as well listen to some music instead.

Practice practice practice...

 

With 3000 hours on the 737 I find the MiG-21 quite believable in the "normal" flight regimes, can't say too much about the extremes though.

 

Hello, what is your texture on grounds on this video?

Thx

[Justin Case]

Hello, what is your texture on grounds on this video?

Thx

 

V 3.0 here -> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=132444

[terence44]

V 3.0 here -> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=132444

 

Thank you again ! :)

[OnlyforDCS]

Just wanted to chime in. Im not a real pilot but Ive been simming since...forever. Got the Bis over the weekend, and gotta say it's pretty amazing. Im mostly poring over the manual ATM and did the startup and taxi missions a few times. My first take-off was really weak. Managed to get her in the air, but just barely. Thank you Leatherneck!

[Toten]

60 hours or so in Cessna's and Pipers. Just picked up the 21 and I love this flight model, great job leatherneck, the plane performs exactly as I expect it to. Have to stay in front of it. Landed it first try last night, after experimenting with slow speed handling for a bit.

[CoBlue]

I'm an ATPL pilot. For me landings the 21 on a rwy is boring unless it's IMC , landing on a road is my preferred method ;)