Rudder on takeoff...

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

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Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[Buzzles]

When you say it's minimal...are you setting the rudder trim to 6 degree right first?

 

If so, that'll explain why you find you only need minimal rudder during take off, plus even with the stick pulled back, you do still have some control via the steerable rear wheel.

 

Have you tried taking off without dialing in the rudder trim? It behaves a lot more like the Fw190 and BF109 do during the take off roll, but it's still a bit easier to control because of the wheel.

 

(Also, make sure you've turned off Take Off Assist and Rudder Assist in options, otherwise the sim will be *helping* you out)

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

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Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[msalama]

were tuned down

 

I bought the Mustang immediately when it was first released, flew it exclusively for 2 months, set it aside for a long time and only got back to it a month ago - and I'm seeing no difference in how it behaves now compared to how I remember it behaving back then. Just my opinion though...

[Buzzles]

Thx for the reply and suggestions Buzzles!

 

Yes, I always make sure I have T/O assistance set to 0%, and I dial the 6º right rudder trim, although they are meant primarily for the initial climb phase and not that much for the takeof, as Dudley Henriques makes clear in one of his posts on how to fly the Mustang :-)

"There is one overwhelming point about the rudder trim on the 51 that should be completely understood by everyone. That 6 degrees of right rudder trim is NOT pre-set before takeoff to solve the forces acting on the aircraft during the takeoff run. You do that with rudder and aileron used in conjunction with a COMPLETE understanding of airspeed and how increasing airspeed increases dynamic pressure on the control surfaces.

What that 6 degrees right trim ACTUALLY gives you is an optimally trimmed out airplane at 46 inches and 2700RPM which is your first power reduction AFTER takeoff. "

 

While I'm not disagreeing with that quote, don't forget all those systems are linked and that the torque which drags the plane to the side is proportional to the engine power settings...which is also responsible for the power of the slipstream hitting the rudder (propwash and by simply going faster) and therefore the rudder's effectiveness.

 

Seriously, do an experiment without setting rudder trim, it's certainly much more interesting :)

 

I also do agree with msalama, I don't recall any changes to make it easier. Are you sure you just haven't gotten better? It does happen you know :)

[WildBillKelsoe]

I concur with jcomm. You will notice that on reaching full 60/3000 setting, then reducing immediately to maximum continuous 46/2700 the plane does not need any rudder trimming (unless winds in mission).

 

Also, I noticed that in order to overcome the inherent rudder trimming need, I can set power to lower setting (so long as its in the green), and most influential is RPM setting rather than manifold pressure. You can try it by fixing throttle and adjusting propeller lever. Once I notice that rudder does not need trimming (ball in center), I fix that RPM setting. Now all I have to do is adjust ailerons and elevators trim (which is continuous adjustment for CG is very dynamic in this plane as every second, fuel is being burned from left wing). And even with a fuselage tank, more play with elevator trim.

 

I really wish a replication gauge for ball and ADI could be made as plug and play. Will really make life easier with dogfighing without having to look inside the cockpit every second to see the ball, where with a (saitek panel perhaps) your eye corner sees it next to your screen and you can do it). Makes sense?

 

Also, I got the P-51D from day 1 in 2012, and had troubles without having bought CH pro pedals. Now I takeoff and land easy and I don't notice any difference in difficulty since 2012. I have both T/O assist and rudder auto trim disabled.

Edited April 6, 2015 by WildBillKelsoe

[BSS_Vidar]

Trim is helpful; however, I suggest reduced power at 40" MP up to 60mph to obtain rudder authority, then gradually advance to full power. Foot technique is to rapidly adjust rudder in (to the right) and out (back to neutral) quickly and constantly just like a real tail-dragger. That should help you improve directional control during take-off.

 

V

[WildBillKelsoe]

from the book "taildragger tactics", author describes rudder playing as one foot pushes in the other balances, and then shift roles...

[msalama]

and I don't notice any difference in difficulty since 2012

 

My point exactly, i.e. I don't think they've "tuned it down" in any way, because I see no evidence of this when operating the bird now.

[Socket7]

I remember when the mustang first came out, for a few versions it had a very pronounced tendency to snap roll on lift off.

 

It was fixed as a bug causing unrealistic handling.

[OutOnTheOP]

I really wish a replication gauge for ball and ADI could be made as plug and play. Will really make life easier with dogfighing without having to look inside the cockpit every second to see the ball, where with a (saitek panel perhaps) your eye corner sees it next to your screen and you can do it). Makes sense?

 

Funny you should mention; that's the ONLY issue I have with the layout of the P-51D cockpit: given how crucial the slip indicator is during every phase of flight (to include dogfighting and good gunnery), I wish they'd placed it as high on the panel as possible, preferably right next to the gunsight (or better yet, had a slip ball ON the gunsight)

 

As for takeoffs getting easier, I would have to concur that it's mostly a practice and technique thing; it only FEELS easier. Go find a noob and see how easy they find it ;)

Edited April 7, 2015 by OutOnTheOP

[WildBillKelsoe]

I think when oculus consumer is released, most of our flying problems (depth perception, coordination, etc..) will be long gone. I think we now agree that its a flying skill issue rather than a dynamics issue.

[Deki]

From most readings about the p51 models during ww2, including the tuned up models like the "D" series, the pilots insist in the huge requirement for right rudder during takeoff. Well, as it is modeled right now, the amount of rudder input I need is really minimal, and I wonder if this is due to the modified tailplane and in particular fin and rudder in the p51d ?

 

I was also expecting "huge requirement for right rudder" but after coming across this little text in AAF MANUAL 51-127-5 (Chapter 'Flying the P-51' under 'Takeoff' pg.55) now I'm not so sure -

 

"Keep the airplane in a 3-point attitude until you have plenty of airspeed. In normal take-off, the rudder trim tab is sufficient to make the torque almost unnoticeable."

[CHDT]

"In normal take-off, the rudder trim tab is sufficient to make the torque almost unnoticeable."

 

Not for all pilots ;-)

 

 

 

PS: also "I", in the TF-51 !

[Echo38]

I don't use as much rudder on takeoff than is normally recommended, reading all the material, pilot recounts and talking with pilots who fly the plane 5 days a week every week. Heck, I don't even put in the required rudder trim for TO. All the TF-51s at Stallion take off with right 6-degrees rudder trim; if I did that in the sim I'd veer drastically to the right during takeoff, needing left rudder to counter.

 

I wish every flight simmer had at least a few hours flying a real aircraft--even just a Cessna. There's so much misunderstanding about trim amongst simmers; I've been seeing it for years. I can't blame people, though; without having felt it oneself, it's difficult to understand how it works IRL. Lemme try to put it simply:

 

In an accurately-modelled P.C. flight sim, during flight, if you're holding your physical gaming joystick constant, and you alter the trim in the sim, your virtual stick moves.

 

In a real aircraft, during flight, if you're holding the stick constant, and you alter the trim in the sim, your stick doesn't move. It just increases or decreases the pull on your arm(s). The stick will only move if you allow it to move (as in "letting go" or relaxing your arms).

 

There's no way of accurately simulating this in a P.C. flight sim. Force-feedback joysticks are the closest thing, but they don't have strong enough motors to portray it accurately under all conditions. This phenomenon--the inherent discrepancy between RL (with one analogue stick) and a PC flightsim (with one physical stick digitally commanding a separate virtual stick)--is responsible for much (or most) of the pilot-induced oscillation, and other control issues, which we simmers experience.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Echo38

[Yo-Yo]

I get and agree with what you're saying, but that's not what I meant. Not to go off topic but I do have quite a bit of flight time in a Cessna 150, 172, F-33A Bonanza and L-39 (not a prop I know). I also and am often around real Mustangs and 3-4 pilots who fly them almost daily as their job. The real Mustangs use right 6 rudder trim, elevator trim 0 (fuselage fuel tank removed) and aileron trim 0 for takeoff. I was referring to the fact that in DCS's iteration of the Mustang, 6 degrees is too much. Instead of easing the left-turning tendencies of the torque-effects on the takeoff roll, it over-corrects them without any input on the rudder pedals and the nose starts going to the right, a lot. This in turn means I have to counter that right with left rudder. So I don't use rudder trim on takeoff, or if I do it's about 2 degrees, most certainly not 6. It's almost as if the rudder trim in DCS is turning the entire rudder control surface (and when locked the tail wheel with it), not just the tab. I notice it even at very slow taxi speed with 6 degrees of right in it'll creep right.

 

Just make an experiment: turn TO assistant on to 100%, then set 5-6 degrees right rudder trim. Turn controls indicator (red square :) ) on. Do nothing with your pedals during TO and look to the rudder indicator...

[Yo-Yo]

I remember when the mustang first came out, for a few versions it had a very pronounced tendency to snap roll on lift off.

 

It was fixed as a bug causing unrealistic handling.

 

Who fixed it???

[Echo38]

The real Mustangs use right 6 rudder trim, elevator trim 0 (fuselage fuel tank removed) and aileron trim 0 for takeoff. I was referring to the fact that in DCS's iteration of the Mustang, 6 degrees is too much. Instead of easing the left-turning tendencies of the torque-effects on the takeoff roll, it over-corrects them without any input on the rudder pedals and the nose starts going to the right, a lot. This in turn means I have to counter that right with left rudder.

 

Did you read post #3 in this thread? There he already addressed that point. Is he incorrect? If so, how?

Edited May 14, 2015 by Echo38

[msalama]

6 degrees is too much

 

Not in my experience. I dial in those 6º and still have to give her some right leg - not much, but still.

[Socket7]

Who fixed it???

 

I wish I could recall. I have a memory of reading it in a patch notes, but it was so long ago and I can't find more information. I wouldn't put it past me to be misremembering things though. :doh:

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

thats an interesting topic...well for me at least... i know, Yo-Yo alwas insists on the P51 still being the same bird...i still remember when i first started with dcs in the P51, with horrible take offs, lots of crashes and quite a bit frustration at first...and the overwhelming feeling of success when i did get this bird up into the air...

 

now i couldnt think of something easier really...especially the P51 is no challenge at all for me.with the steerable tailwheel, there is no need for rudder trim or any trim at all for take offs and landings. just a little rudder for correction...to me now, it almost feels too easy...i believe Yo-Yo of course, and im convinced its still the same bird, but subjective feeling is, that its scaled down to "arcadish" easy behaviour on take offs and landings...well, practice obviously makes a huge difference :)

[msalama]

well, practice obviously makes a huge difference :)

Indeed. Once the thrill is gone and the inherent difficulties overcome, folks start to blame the dev about how the plane is now "nerfed". Talk about daft... OK, show me the exact patch responsible and prove the alleged nerfiness with unambiguous data and I'll believe you :doh:

[Yo-Yo]

thats an interesting topic...well for me at least... i know, Yo-Yo alwas insists on the P51 still being the same bird...i still remember when i first started with dcs in the P51, with horrible take offs, lots of crashes and quite a bit frustration at first...and the overwhelming feeling of success when i did get this bird up into the air...

 

now i couldnt think of something easier really...especially the P51 is no challenge at all for me.with the steerable tailwheel, there is no need for rudder trim or any trim at all for take offs and landings. just a little rudder for correction...to me now, it almost feels too easy...i believe Yo-Yo of course, and im convinced its still the same bird, but subjective feeling is, that its scaled down to "arcadish" easy behaviour on take offs and landings...well, practice obviously makes a huge difference :)

 

If you know what are you doing at each moment of the TO and you know, what kind of disturbance you must counteract at each moment - you will consider TO easy in any plane.

 

Speculating on hard TO in early Mustang (actually there were not "early" and "late" FMs - Mustang went out with the FM that was not corrected excluding free tail wheel physics) always force me to recall the experiment I conducted for the "pre release version" (just the same as "release", though): I asked my daughter who never fly in any sim (possibly only once as she was 10) to TO in P-51. I did not touch controls at all limited myself with only verbal directions.

She safely took off from the 5th attempt. :)

[SharpeXB]

Indeed. Once the thrill is gone and the inherent difficulties overcome, folks start to blame the dev about how the plane is now "nerfed". Talk about daft... OK, show me the exact patch responsible and prove the alleged nerfiness with unambiguous data and I'll believe you :doh:

I have this experience all the time in these sims. I feel like the plane has gotten easier to fly like it must have changed somehow. When I started I could not even make a simple turn without spinning repeatedly. Now I can't make the plane spin even if I try. Practice is an amazing thing :joystick:

[NineLine]

Who fixed it???

 

The imaginary ED Team member named 'Practice' fixed it ;)