near_blind Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 Personally, i have never quite figured the DDD out and when the contacts represent range or rate. Or if they are in a horizontal or vertical plane for that matter. I only use it to actually find contacts at extreme ranges (using pulse doppler search or whatever it is called) and then once located using the TID and RWS/TWS radar modes to get exact location and bearing on the contacts. Most literature though, seams to allude to closure rates and not actual distance being displayed on the DDD. DDD displaying rate jives with most of what I've read. My concern here is that in just about every "simulation" of the Tomcat I've flown (a list that is by no means exhaustive), the TID seems to present information in a form that is more vague than I'm used to with the B-Scope. I'm not sure if this is because most developers haven't had the access, time, or motivation to properly model it's finer functionality, or if fitting with the strange intermediary time which the F-14 was developed, the TID/DDD combo really was just that funky compared to the systems that would come a short time later. I'm like 90% sure the author misspoke and the DDD is rate only, but this forum seems to be the current F-14 brain trust, so I thought I'd ask.
captain_dalan Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 DDD displaying rate jives with most of what I've read. My concern here is that in just about every "simulation" of the Tomcat I've flown (a list that is by no means exhaustive), the TID seems to present information in a form that is more vague than I'm used to with the B-Scope...... What is it about the TID that seams vague to you? The geometry of the scope or the actual simbology? Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache
PE_Tigar Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Basically what Nick said. Aside from that, the HSD (lower most driver display) could "call" on RIO's TID, NAV/TACAN/INS and RWR systems. Navigational data could also be used with the HSI. If i'm not mistaken, all NAV data were fed into the computer preflight, and while it included nav ponts, no maps were available. As for the inertial navigation, the only thing i know about its efficiency is that it had to be reset before every flight, but i think that's the case with every system out there. Ah, INS :) Of course it needs to be aligned - some guys discuss it here, they seem to know what they're taking about: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military.naval/LDqxfDpiA64 Depending on what system is implemented (mechanical or ring-laser gyros) the accuracy of navigation will decrease during the flight more or less. I'd expect not much, though, it's usually a function of time, and mechanical forces (turbulence, maneuvering), so if a mission lasts less than a couple of hours it should stay fairly precise... Edited May 5, 2015 by PE_Tigar 2
captain_dalan Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 Very good find! :thumbup: Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache
lunaticfringe Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) DDD shows range, rather than rate, while in PD SRCH, RWS, and TWS modes, functioning as a B-Scope. Velocity Search shows the values as rate information. Edited May 5, 2015 by lunaticfringe
captain_dalan Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 The equivalent of the velocity search is called Pulse-Doppler Search in the AWG-9 Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache
Alicatt Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 Ah, INS :) Of course it needs to be aligned - some guys discuss it here, they seem to know what they're taking about: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military.naval/LDqxfDpiA64 Depending on what system is implemented (mechanical or ring-laser gyros) the accuracy of navigation will decrease during the flight more or less. I'd expect not much, though, it's usually a function of time, and mechanical forces (turbulence, maneuvering), so if a mission lasts less than a couple of hours it should stay fairly precise... Nice find :) Reading that reminds me of my GPS enabled telescope and what it does to find it's self and get an alignment. From cold and no location it first downloads the tables from the GPS satellites and works out it's location, then it spins around 360degrees one way and then 360 the other way to get a location on magnetic north, then from the data downloaded from the GPS it works out true north, then does a tilt nodding up and down on north then east, south and west to find out how level it is. Once it has done all that it points at a star and you have to centre it and it does this another 2 to 4 times to get it's precision fix, after all that it is ready to look at the stars :) Lucky you can do a "warm" start if you have parked it up properly then it just checks the stars and you are ready to go. Sons of Dogs, Come Eat Flesh Clan Cameron
near_blind Posted May 6, 2015 Posted May 6, 2015 What is it about the TID that seams vague to you? The geometry of the scope or the actual simbology? Most of my sim experience has been B-scopes that are laid out pretty similarly (F-15, F-16 and F/A-18). The 3 line grid make it much easier to determine the target's range and bearing without having to lock him up in STT. With the TID you only get the artificial horizon and the radar gimbal limits as indications for range and bearing. Range isn't that much of an issue, but I have a heck of a time trying to figure out what the actual bearing in degrees to a brick is on the F-14 without being able to look at it in the DDD. All of this can honestly be filed under the category of whining because things are slightly different. I'm sure I'll make due when the Cat is out. DDD shows range, rather than rate, while in PD SRCH, RWS, and TWS modes, functioning as a B-Scope. Velocity Search shows the values as rate information. Do you happen to remember where you read that? I'd feel much more assured of this opinion if I can find a source independent of the one I've got now.
captain_dalan Posted May 6, 2015 Posted May 6, 2015 Most of my sim experience has been B-scopes that are laid out pretty similarly (F-15, F-16 and F/A-18). The 3 line grid make it much easier to determine the target's range and bearing without having to lock him up in STT. With the TID you only get the artificial horizon and the radar gimbal limits as indications for range and bearing. Range isn't that much of an issue, but I have a heck of a time trying to figure out what the actual bearing in degrees to a brick is on the F-14 without being able to look at it in the DDD. All of this can honestly be filed under the category of whining because things are slightly different. I'm sure I'll make due when the Cat is out. Not whining at all man. The interface is rather different then in the 15-18 series. If it helps: Range to the current selected target (even in "soft lock") should be in the upper left side (if memory serves, i'm typing this from the office, will check later) and closure rate is the utter left. Bearing is a bit trickier as the only reference lines are the radar limits (unless in STT), so it's largely established "by eye". However, getting your cursor over your contact should provide you with an exact bullseye information..... the keyword here being "should". I am yet to see a detailed RIO seat simulated in that detail (radar control and operation). Aside from that i find the "cutaway" birds eye approach a bit more intuitive then the standard "flattened" B-scopes :) Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache
Hummingbird Posted May 6, 2015 Posted May 6, 2015 FSX cockpit to visually place the pictures above for you:
BlackLion213 Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Nice shots! Great to see the real thing in addition to the Aerosoft rendition. -Nick
Top Jockey Posted November 10, 2016 Posted November 10, 2016 By speaking about F-14 systems, does anyone know what are the marked knobs & switches, A, B and C, and what exactly they do ? They are at the RIO Left Side Console; in the Radar / IR / TV (TCS) control panel (image below). Jets Helis Maps FC 3 JA 37 Ka-50 Caucasus F-14 A/B MiG-23 Mi-8 MTV2 Nevada F-16 C MiG-29 F/A-18 C Mirage III E MiG-21 bis Mirage 2000 C i7-4790 K , 16 GB DDR3 , GTX 1660 Ti 6GB , Samsung 860 QVO 1TB
Top Jockey Posted November 10, 2016 Posted November 10, 2016 Anyone ? Jets Helis Maps FC 3 JA 37 Ka-50 Caucasus F-14 A/B MiG-23 Mi-8 MTV2 Nevada F-16 C MiG-29 F/A-18 C Mirage III E MiG-21 bis Mirage 2000 C i7-4790 K , 16 GB DDR3 , GTX 1660 Ti 6GB , Samsung 860 QVO 1TB
probad Posted November 10, 2016 Posted November 10, 2016 if people dont know, making another post isnt going to change anything. have some patience please. the upper two switchs are pretty self explanatory, the right one controls whether or not the video camera gets slaved to the radar, or vice versa. the middle one seems analogous to radar aaq modes, except for the tcs instead. best guess is that the left switch controls footage recording, you can set it to record tcs output for example. no idea what all the other options are. 1
Cool Breeze Posted November 11, 2016 Posted November 11, 2016 By speaking about F-14 systems, does anyone know what are the marked knobs & switches, A, B and C, and what exactly they do ? They are at the RIO Left Side Console; in the Radar / IR / TV (TCS) control panel (image below). Jockey if you don't mind a bit of speculation. A is likely used to tie either a sidewinder or the TCS (television camera set) to the radar. B is a radar modes selector switch C is another selector probably used to move between certain radar modes and the TCS on the RIOs display. This is just my speculation, if anyone has any knowledge as to their actual function please feel free to correct me. "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Leonardo Da Vinci "We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came." John F. Kennedy
turkeydriver Posted November 11, 2016 Posted November 11, 2016 Jockey if you don't mind a bit of speculation. A is likely used to tie either a sidewinder or the TCS (television camera set) to the radar. B is a radar modes selector switch C is another selector probably used to move between certain radar modes and the TCS on the RIOs display. This is just my speculation, if anyone has any knowledge as to their actual function please feel free to correct me. They would not be for Siidewinder as the RIO doesn't play with that weapon whatsoever. They would be for slaving the radar to the TCS or IRST on the F-14D or the IR seeker set from the early F-14A. This allows for an radar emission free intercept for either an active AIM-54 shot, sidewinder shot, HOJ AIM-7 shot, or gun. Also great to use in heavy ECM environments. Think of it as the earliest generation of "sensor fusion" VF-2 Bounty Hunters https://www.csg-1.com/ DCS F-14 Pilot/RIO Discord: https://discord.gg/6bbthxk
Top Jockey Posted November 11, 2016 Posted November 11, 2016 Hello everyone, The picture is from the sim you all know (FSX). Although not all of those knobs & switches are actually active (in the sim), still I keep great interest in those systems as I'm a longtime F-14 fan. if people dont know, making another post isnt going to change anything. have some patience please. the upper two switchs are pretty self explanatory, the right one controls whether or not the video camera gets slaved to the radar, or vice versa. the middle one seems analogous to radar aaq modes, except for the tcs instead. best guess is that the left switch controls footage recording, you can set it to record tcs output for example. no idea what all the other options are. I believe the C knob might just be related to that (not sure though). Jockey if you don't mind a bit of speculation. A is likely used to tie either a sidewinder or the TCS (television camera set) to the radar. B is a radar modes selector switch C is another selector probably used to move between certain radar modes and the TCS on the RIOs display. This is just my speculation, if anyone has any knowledge as to their actual function please feel free to correct me. Don't mind at all, be my guest. I understand what you say about the A switch. But I believe it's only for switching TCS / Radar Slave Mode between each other first, and afterwards the AIM-9 missile can also be cued in function of each one of these. Regarding B switch don't know, but it may be related to Radar yes, as i don't know if TCS could have some kind of "auto-search" feature... They would not be for Siidewinder as the RIO doesn't play with that weapon whatsoever. They would be for slaving the radar to the TCS or IRST on the F-14D or the IR seeker set from the early F-14A. This allows for an radar emission free intercept for either an active AIM-54 shot, sidewinder shot, HOJ AIM-7 shot, or gun. Also great to use in heavy ECM environments. Think of it as the earliest generation of "sensor fusion" Hello turkeydriver, Yes, as far as I know the early AIM-9 Sidewinder's "modes" of target search / acquisition in the Tomcat were several, and I believe it was the pilot who selected them at is will. However these "modes" also do depend on sensors; (Radar; TCS; Seeker Head; etc.) That Radar / TCS control panel is from F-14A, (don't know if it's similar for the D version). Jets Helis Maps FC 3 JA 37 Ka-50 Caucasus F-14 A/B MiG-23 Mi-8 MTV2 Nevada F-16 C MiG-29 F/A-18 C Mirage III E MiG-21 bis Mirage 2000 C i7-4790 K , 16 GB DDR3 , GTX 1660 Ti 6GB , Samsung 860 QVO 1TB
turkeydriver Posted November 11, 2016 Posted November 11, 2016 Thanks, then I'd verify but I'm sure its for the IR Seeker that some F-14As had before all went to TCS. Hello everyone, The picture is from the sim you all know (FSX). Although not all of those knobs & switches are actually active (in the sim), still I keep great interest in those systems as I'm a longtime F-14 fan. I believe the C knob might just be related to that (not sure though). Don't mind at all, be my guest. I understand what you say about the A switch. But I believe it's only for switching TCS / Radar Slave Mode between each other first, and afterwards the AIM-9 missile can also be cued in function of each one of these. Regarding B switch don't know, but it may be related to Radar yes, as i don't know if TCS could have some kind of "auto-search" feature... Hello turkeydriver, Yes, as far as I know the early AIM-9 Sidewinder's "modes" of target search / acquisition in the Tomcat were several, and I believe it was the pilot who selected them at is will. However these "modes" also do depend on sensors; (Radar; TCS; Seeker Head; etc.) That Radar / TCS control panel is from F-14A, (don't know if it's similar for the D version). VF-2 Bounty Hunters https://www.csg-1.com/ DCS F-14 Pilot/RIO Discord: https://discord.gg/6bbthxk
Baz000 Posted November 11, 2016 Posted November 11, 2016 F-14 radar displays: Here is the story behind those pictures from Bio's website... Thought maybe ppl would like to read about the training encounter. http://www.topgunbio.com/radarsearch/ 1
lunaticfringe Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 A: Sensor Slaving Panel. RDR means that TCS is slaved to the radar (ie, TCS looks at what the radar is focused on). INDEP is radar and TCS are functioning independently of one another. And TCS slaves the radar to the camera. B: TCS ACQ (Acquisition) modes. AUTO SRCH is exactly like it sounds like, and I can't recall exactly what the prioritization is for MAN and AUTO with respect to the SSP, or if there is in fact any interaction. I believe that AUTO performs an acquisition if you're functioning in INDEP or TCS slave and crosses a visual target, and MAN requires the RIO to select the target- for which is helpful depending on the situation to perform "breakout" assessment of groups, or if the TCS has to go past something you have already ID'd, but don't quote me on that. C: Designates what source is feeding to the Mission Video Recorder (MVR)- HUD, MFDs, DD, PTID, etc. Note: the B functions were moved off the panel to the upper right tile section of the DD.
Top Jockey Posted November 14, 2016 Posted November 14, 2016 A: Sensor Slaving Panel. RDR means that TCS is slaved to the radar (ie, TCS looks at what the radar is focused on). INDEP is radar and TCS are functioning independently of one another. And TCS slaves the radar to the camera. B: TCS ACQ (Acquisition) modes. AUTO SRCH is exactly like it sounds like, and I can't recall exactly what the prioritization is for MAN and AUTO with respect to the SSP, or if there is in fact any interaction. I believe that AUTO performs an acquisition if you're functioning in INDEP or TCS slave and crosses a visual target, and MAN requires the RIO to select the target- for which is helpful depending on the situation to perform "breakout" assessment of groups, or if the TCS has to go past something you have already ID'd, but don't quote me on that. C: Designates what source is feeding to the Mission Video Recorder (MVR)- HUD, MFDs, DD, PTID, etc. Note: the B functions were moved off the panel to the upper right tile section of the DD. Hello, Really didn't know the TCS had any auto-search or acquisition feature ( and therefore some kind of image recognition capability ? ) About C, wasn't sure either, but it makes all sense. Thank you for you time. Jets Helis Maps FC 3 JA 37 Ka-50 Caucasus F-14 A/B MiG-23 Mi-8 MTV2 Nevada F-16 C MiG-29 F/A-18 C Mirage III E MiG-21 bis Mirage 2000 C i7-4790 K , 16 GB DDR3 , GTX 1660 Ti 6GB , Samsung 860 QVO 1TB
GGTharos Posted November 14, 2016 Posted November 14, 2016 No image recognition. It's contrast/blob based and may also include some motion analysis software. Hello, Really didn't know the TCS had any auto-search or acquisition feature ( and therefore some kind of image recognition capability ? ) About C, wasn't sure either, but it makes all sense. Thank you for you time. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Top Jockey Posted November 15, 2016 Posted November 15, 2016 No image recognition. It's contrast/blob based and may also include some motion analysis software. Hello GGTharos, Interesting, this all goes to show the kind of efforts (technologically wise) to get an edge in combat. Jets Helis Maps FC 3 JA 37 Ka-50 Caucasus F-14 A/B MiG-23 Mi-8 MTV2 Nevada F-16 C MiG-29 F/A-18 C Mirage III E MiG-21 bis Mirage 2000 C i7-4790 K , 16 GB DDR3 , GTX 1660 Ti 6GB , Samsung 860 QVO 1TB
Alicatt Posted November 20, 2016 Posted November 20, 2016 Was looking for some info on the RIO and his duties and came across this study by NASA about a decision aid for assisting the F-14's aircrew in the CAP https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19820005810.pdf On target identification http://www.jpier.org/PIER/pier108/08.10071601.pdf Sons of Dogs, Come Eat Flesh Clan Cameron
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