Huey EGT limitations... Test Flight...

[DSPALLASVI]

I appreciate it is seen as a game by one, and simultaneously as a sim by another.

Personally I like to think of it as a Sim, being a RL fixed wing pilot who has a life long desire of flying helicopters.

 

The more I'm looking "behind-the-scenes" of the mechanisms of DCS, and specifically the Huey, the more I find that a variety of data is present and can be used to trigger actions; EGT being one of them, Torque, Bank, Pitch, Time, Collective Position, Fuel Pressure, Rudder, Cyclic, ALL BREAKERS etc. etc. etc. being other examples of data that is being used, AND AVAILABLE in the model.

My attached '.miz' file at the start of this post being an example of that. Don't know if anyone has tried out that flight, to see if it actually lives up to the challenge of EGT limits.

(Note: due to the '.miz' file being a 'test-flight', a message appears in the top right of the screen, mainly to show me when the EGT limits are being exceeded.)

 

All I did was simply tag certain EGT temps and ranges to a Flag, timed the flag, and make the flag trigger an action. An engine quitting for example, being similar to a damage model.

 

Browsing through the various '.lua' files in DCS, I found that all that data and more(!!) IS present in the sim...

Now my (simplistic??) thought is that if someone like me, with very little knowledge of coding, MIST and / or '.lua' programming can make EGT limits, it must be a small step for someone much more knowledgeable to make that link a little more permanent and allow the Huey to be flown closer to it's operating envelope; instead of flying it off and beyond the 'limitations page' altogether.

 

In post # 5, 'ajax' drew attention to the following:

... If you want to interact with the cockpit from a mission script, you are limited to the trigger functions that ED made available. Your mission will also only work in single player.

 

While the mission editor apparently generates calls to Lua functions for the conditions and triggers you create, these functions are not available in the execution context of mission scripts. Mission scripts only get access to what is exposed via the "trigger.action" object.

 

It looks like in terms of interacting with the clickable cockpit from mission scripts, ED only added what they needed to build the interactive tutorials....

Again, not having much knowledge about programming, my assumption is that the application of RL limits is sooo close, i.e. ALL the data is there to be used. How difficult would it be to implement the limits more permanently than via the laborious input of triggers?!

Is there ANY way to overcome this bottle neck?

Any programmers out there that could shine a light on this?

 

This gets to the guts of it all. Just knowing that all this above mentioned data (EGT etc.) IS available, using it would push the Huey into a true Sim environment.

And for those who don't like the restrictions and would love to fly limitless, in "God-Mode" so to speak, isn't there already a choice in the Huey's 'Option's > 'Gameplay' menu where one can select between 'Simulation' and 'Game'?

 

Please don't misread anything here. I am not putting anyone or anything down; instead am thoroughly enjoying flying the Huey. So much so, that I am trading in my 'C-Tek' flight controls for the 'Komodo' Huey controls.

My point is just that from where I'm sitting, it seems such a small step to implement these limits.

The amount of time, inspiration and work that went into creating the Huey model, ALL the data that is there... they're so close....

 

and to think, I paid ONLY $ 49.00 for ALL that, imagine that, THANK YOU devs !!!)

[msalama]

Fair enough A16, obviously it's a game too because people use it for recreational purposes. So it's a sim AND a game then ;)

[Chic]

I appreciate it is seen as a game by one, and simultaneously as a sim by another.

Personally I like to think of it as a Sim, being a RL fixed wing pilot who has a life long desire of flying helicopters.

 

The more I'm looking "behind-the-scenes" of the mechanisms of DCS, and specifically the Huey, the more I find that a variety of data is present and can be used to trigger actions; EGT being one of them, Torque, Bank, Pitch, Time, Collective Position, Fuel Pressure, Rudder, Cyclic, ALL BREAKERS etc. etc. etc. being other examples of data that is being used, AND AVAILABLE in the model.

My attached '.miz' file at the start of this post being an example of that. Don't know if anyone has tried out that flight, to see if it actually lives up to the challenge of EGT limits.

(Note: due to the '.miz' file being a 'test-flight', a message appears in the top right of the screen, mainly to show me when the EGT limits are being exceeded.)

 

All I did was simply tag certain EGT temps and ranges to a Flag, timed the flag, and make the flag trigger an action. An engine quitting for example, being similar to a damage model.

 

Browsing through the various '.lua' files in DCS, I found that all that data and more(!!) IS present in the sim...

Now my (simplistic??) thought is that if someone like me, with very little knowledge of coding, MIST and / or '.lua' programming can make EGT limits, it must be a small step for someone much more knowledgeable to make that link a little more permanent and allow the Huey to be flown closer to it's operating envelope; instead of flying it off and beyond the 'limitations page' altogether.

 

In post # 5, 'ajax' drew attention to the following: Again, not having much knowledge about programming, my assumption is that the application of RL limits is sooo close, i.e. ALL the data is there to be used. How difficult would it be to implement the limits more permanently than via the laborious input of triggers?!

Is there ANY way to overcome this bottle neck?

Any programmers out there that could shine a light on this?

 

This gets to the guts of it all. Just knowing that all this above mentioned data (EGT etc.) IS available, using it would push the Huey into a true Sim environment.

And for those who don't like the restrictions and would love to fly limitless, in "God-Mode" so to speak, isn't there already a choice in the Huey's 'Option's > 'Gameplay' menu where one can select between 'Simulation' and 'Game'?

 

Please don't misread anything here. I am not putting anyone or anything down; instead am thoroughly enjoying flying the Huey. So much so, that I am trading in my 'C-Tek' flight controls for the 'Komodo' Huey controls.

My point is just that from where I'm sitting, it seems such a small step to implement these limits.

The amount of time, inspiration and work that went into creating the Huey model, ALL the data that is there... they're so close....

 

and to think, I paid ONLY $ 49.00 for ALL that, imagine that, THANK YOU devs !!!)

 

 

Well that may be true because all these years we have learnt to fly with almost unlimited power and we will be dissapointed of what we won't be able (that previoulsy could) do IF and WHEN these limmits are implemented...

 

I really can't understand why BSD abandoned this excellent module with unlimited power... At least that should have been done. When you are making a realistic flight sim you can't ignore it's limmitations... we can play HAWX also... It's great fun too...

 

I am very harsh of what I write here, but I really have fed up waiting limmits to be implemented, and I personaly won't fly any more if these limmits are NOT made... Period

 

I am not complaining about some visual glitches, or some reostats not working. Limmits are the number one factor you have in mind when flying in RL and in BSD Huey just are not there... For me, it's not a sim any more in my heart...

 

 

 

DSPALLASVI, this is a brilliantly laid out argument regarding fidelity optimization of the Huey. Belsimtek's creation here is too special to leave so imperfect. I share your passion for this bird and am also a Komodosim convert. I am nearing retirement and, during this transition, Huey has provided ample intellectual stimulation as well as fun. I regret that my expertise and skills do not include computer software manipulation so I cannot be contributory there, but I beseech you to continue to spearhead this movement.

 

 

SONDO, please don't give up on Huey. Your observations and opinions are compelling. We need your experiences and passion to champion this effort and help make this happen..

[sondo214]

SONDO, please don't give up on Huey. Your observations and opinions are compelling. We need your experiences and passion to champion this effort and help make this happen..

 

I don't give up... I am just sad and I will wait till they are implemented...

[DSPALLASVI]

DSPALLASVI, this is a brilliantly laid out argument regarding fidelity optimization of the Huey. Belsimtek's creation here is too special to leave so imperfect. I share your passion for this bird and am also a Komodosim convert. I am nearing retirement and, during this transition, Huey has provided ample intellectual stimulation as well as fun. I regret that my expertise and skills do not include computer software manipulation so I cannot be contributory there, but I beseech you to continue to spearhead this movement.

Thank you for your kind words Chic. Unfortunately this is about the max extend of my "spearheading", unless someone in a position to make a change actually replies.

That way, it wouldn't feel like this 'multiple-one-way' discussion. (I write "multiple" here, because many people have written on this forum about this issue before, and it seems to be all going in one direction... for I have not seen an answer back. A reply to indicate the developers are actually reading this forum and if so, if they feel that one day these limitations could be implemented).

For right now, I feel like I'm some anonymous fan, shouting from WAAAAY up high in the soccer stadium.

Shouting to be heard by the manager of a famous team, just trying to suggest a winning change..... :huh:... providing the manager is still down there watching 'his team' and hasn't left in the meantime for another club.... :( or retired altogether... :mad:

 

As a side note; I am glad to read that 'sondo214' sticks around, 'cause I've already learned some little nugget of knowledge from his few posts here. Real life experienced pilots are a tremendous source of information wealth...:thumbup:

[Socket7]

I tend to think that belsimtek is trying to not duplicate effort.

 

That is to say, I'm guessing DCS2.0 has expanded features that make for a much better EGT simulation than is possible now, and it makes no sense to pay someone to write an EGT simulation that's going to be depreciated right away.

 

This idea that belsimtek has just "abandoned" modules is really very silly. It's also silly to think they aren't fully aware of glaring issues like this. If I were a dev, I would not want to visit a forum where people are saying I don't care about, or have abandoned the project I work on 40 hours a week and care passionately about.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Socket7

[fjacobsen]

I tend to think that belsimtek is trying to not duplicate effort.

 

That is to say, I'm guessing DCS2.0 has expanded features that make for a much better EGT simulation than is possible now, and it makes no sense to pay someone to write an EGT simulation that's going to be depreciated right away.

 

This idea that belsimtek has just "abandoned" modules is really very silly. It's also silly to think they aren't fully aware of glaring issues like this. If I were a dev, I would not want to visit a forum where people are saying I don't care about, or have abandoned the project I work on 40 hours a week and care passionately about.

 

If thats the way it is, then it would be great with some official statement from Belsim instead of leaving us in the blind.

 

Fact is that many of their modules has been left in beta stage for a very long time and only very few improvements has been been made in the latest updates.

 

I have no problem with that if it really is caused by the dependence of DCS World V2, but some word from Belsim would be highly appriciated.

 

All their modules feels very close to be regarded as finished, but there are items that can be regarded as long time overdue, if not for a reason.

 

FinnJ

[pyromaniac4002]

That is to say, I'm guessing DCS2.0 has expanded features that make for a much better EGT simulation than is possible now, and it makes no sense to pay someone to write an EGT simulation that's going to be depreciated right away.

 

Why would you think that? We know it'll have a new graphics engine, we don't know much else. I have yet to hear about how a graphics engine affects EGT modeling, which is about as simple a mechanism you deal with in any of the DCS-level modules. It really doesn't take anything fancy, and as you can see with this thread, DSPALLASVI very nearly did it with simple .lua scripts.

 

If 2.0 is so different that they can't release some Huey EGT limits now without having to redo it for EDGE, then it would seem 2.0 is so incompatible with the current content that everything would have to be completely redone. Though I admit, with EDGE being in development for so many years, that could very well be exactly what's been happening. :P

 

Really hope BST takes care of this. I don't understand why they didn't in the first place. I know there's already some engine health modeling incorporated, just make the EGT effects work like they should!

[sondo214]

Some Official Answer from the DEVS Please!

[DSPALLASVI]

→ Fishbreath: (post 3); any news, any insight into a possible link between the triggers and making a '.lua' script?

As you can see, you have quite some people interested in implementing this. Not to mention, it would kick-the-Huey into another sim-orbit altogether!!

 

→ sondo214: Today (04/27/'15), it's 451 days from your thread's (#119905) request for an official answer to this same issue regarding the lack of EGT limitations in the Huey.

(http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=119905)

That's 1 year, 2 months and 27 days, to be a tad more precise.

I take it that since that time, no answer from any developers has been forthcoming....:mad:

 

→ socket7:

"...I tend to think that...." "I'm guessing..." "If I were a dev..." "I would not want...." "This idea.... is really very silly..."

Your 'eye-witness' point has been taken quite well. But please do not think that I don't care about the Huey Project. Nor that I say they have abandoned it. Nor, for that matter, that I would want to put down a passionate, 40 hour per week developer.

And I think it is a fair bet to say that other people in this thread do not think along those lines either. Otherwise we wouldn't be sacrificing another virtual forest with all our typed characters on these "pages", in lieu of paper :).... not to mention the time that is involved. And as you can see above, some have been asking for more than one year!!

I'm working on a Huey mission that takes my time to complete; it being my first mission :huh:.

But I feel strongly about this issue, and as it turns out, others do too. Hence the time I spent figuring out the EGT triggers and following up with this post.

As you can see in the first post's attached mission, it IS possible to have EGT limits, that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

My point all along has been that, I managed to implement Huey EGT limits by simply using Triggers in the Mission Editor and I was wondering if there is a way to implement that via a 'lua' script!!

As it turns out, it is not possible.

Of course the next simple question now is, the one where it all revolves around, why not??

And I already hear you ask the next logical, yes even simpler question that follows; what does it take to make it possible after all??

 

And you know what, even IF they'd abandoned the 'Huey Project', it would be a nice gesture, a kind of human touch, a 'wise-move' from a 'business-point-of-view', to actually communicate with their 'fan-base'. I can understand when 'fans' are whining or are being downright nasty, they'd have no interest to react.

But when ideas are pushed forward that could, in many eyes, enhance the Huey simulator, it would make your passionate developer positively glow brighter than the proverbial glow-stick, from the praise he would receive.

 

→ AlphaOneSix (ED Tester's Team): Dare I ask, what is your take on this whole EGT issue? I think we can all agree that some people regard the Huey as a Game, others use it as a Sim.

But what is your feeling / position regarding the possibility of implementing the Huey's EGT limitations?!?

Being one of the ED Tester's Team, I would assume you would have an idea how this actually plays in the Belsimtek© / DCS© developer's world.

[Socket7]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2199723&postcount=34

[sondo214]

It's been over a year since that post eh... So yes they have abandoned it already... It's a pitty...

[NeilWillis]

What makes you say they have abandoned it merely because they haven't yet addressed the EGT problem?

 

It just isn't at the top of the to do pile yet I am sure, and as far as I recall there was even talk of a UH-1H v2.0 in the pipeline, which might account for the lack of progress in v1.0.

 

Wild speculation is neither helpful, or welcome, so why not just stick to the facts which are that the EGT bug has been reported, but is not yet fixed. Anything else is just nonsense, and some of us are sick to the back teeth of all this negativity. A lack of response from Belsimtek is hardly surprising given the way the forum latches on to anything they say like a rabid terrier!

 

Why would they ever consider abandoning such an excellent module?

[AlphaOneSix]

I don't specifically have a take on the EGT isue with the UH-1H module. Mostly because I rarely fly the UH-1H. The vast majority of my effort goes into the Mi-8, which is what I know the most about in real life. Also, the testers really don't, as a rule, have much more insight than anyone else. We have access to report bugs and see what's in the bug list, but we don't necessarily have any idea what the devs are really working on at any given time or how they are prioritizing their work.

[Socket7]

It's been over a year since that post eh... So yes they have abandoned it already... It's a pitty...

 

Your years are 6 months long? :music_whistling:

 

I attempted reasonable discussion, but that does not appear to be wanted from the people 'passionate' about this thread.

 

I'll be taking my leave.

[Fishbreath]

→ Fishbreath: (post 3); any news, any insight into a possible link between the triggers and making a '.lua' script?

As you can see, you have quite some people interested in implementing this. Not to mention, it would kick-the-Huey into another sim-orbit altogether!!

 

As the couple of posts after mine said, it doesn't seem to be possible.

[Chic]

""

Mind you, the triggers can still be used for each mission / flight... but apparently only work in Single Player mode.

All one has to do is implement them into the Mission Editor.

 

DSPALLASVI, I have limited experience with M.E. I'm only flying SP for now.

Would happily modify each mission via M.E. (and save) to get "closer" to EGT implementation. Is there a practical way for you to let me now what I need to do in M.E. to effect this. Don't mean to put you out on this but if it's easy enough, I would appreciate it.

Thanks

[iFoxRomeo]

I tend to think that belsimtek is trying to not duplicate effort.

 

That is to say, I'm guessing DCS2.0 has expanded features that make for a much better EGT simulation than is possible now, and it makes no sense to pay someone to write an EGT simulation that's going to be depreciated right away.

 

This idea that belsimtek has just "abandoned" modules is really very silly. It's also silly to think they aren't fully aware of glaring issues like this. If I were a dev, I would not want to visit a forum where people are saying I don't care about, or have abandoned the project I work on 40 hours a week and care passionately about.

 

Sondo is not talking about better EGT simulation. There is no EGT simulation. You are talking about better possibilities in DCS 2? So does any other DCS aircraft have EGT simulation?

Why do their developers make the effort to simulate it now if that wouldn´t make sense?

Your assumption would lead to no EGT simulation in any subsequent Belsimtek module that came after the Huey, as "...it makes no sense to pay someone to write an EGT simulation that's going to be depreciated right away."

 

Your years are 6 months long? :music_whistling:

 

I attempted reasonable discussion, but that does not appear to be wanted from the people 'passionate' about this thread.

 

I'll be taking my leave.

 

His initial post asking for EGT implementation was from 28 January 2014. Now do the calculation again please.

 

 

Because people are passionate about DCS aircraft, they discuss these topics.

I do hope too that with DCS2 we get some updates. I would gladly pay for a Huey 2.0, as there is unfortunately enough room for improvement.

But it is still the best Huey a normal mortal can buy.

 

TO, honestly, EGT is no problem in the Hotel Huey. The indication in the DCS Huey is simply too high. It´s at least 60°C too high. Don´t waste you time trying so simulate problems that don´t exist in the real helicopter. Currently it appers there are no limitations implemented for the engine and transmission.

Simply enjoy flying her.

 

Sondo, I totally understand your anger about these things. I thought so too. But it won´t help. I just stick to the known limits and fly as if they were implemented.

 

Fox

[Chic]

[quote name=

Sondo, I totally understand your anger about these things. I thought so too. But it won´t help. I just stick to the known limits and fly as if they were implemented.

Fox[/quote]

 

Fox, I've started to research this topic but getting some conflicting info.

Could you provide some "limits" guidelines so that one can apply the "honor system" while flying the Huey.

Thank you

 

EDIT; Just come across a good resource for UH-1h / Lycoming T53 from DOT/FAA 2004. Would still appreciate your thoughts on limit "ranges" and, brief vs continuous violation of limits.

Thanks again for any advice on this.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Chic

[DSPALLASVI]

DSPALLASVI, I have limited experience with M.E. I'm only flying SP for now.

Would happily modify each mission via M.E. (and save) to get "closer" to EGT implementation. Is there a practical way for you to let me now what I need to do in M.E. to effect this. Don't mean to put you out on this but if it's easy enough, I would appreciate it. Thanks

Thanks Chic for the offer, but about all I do too so far has been Single Player, have never flown multi-player missions.

I appreciate your honor system and like the idea.

Myself have decided to simply implement the proven EGT triggers in any mission I come across and feel like setting more 'realistic' limits in.

Last week flew some 'old' missions from when I first learned to fly the Huey, and 'changed / tweaked 'the weight and weather settings in the mission's Mission Editor to make it a tad more challenging, and "realistic" :).

 

I appreciate everyone's input in this thread and am taking my place in the ranks of Huey Belsimtek / DCS fans... :music_whistling::thumbup:

[Chic]

Thanks Chic for the offer, but about all I do too so far has been Single Player, have never flown multi-player missions.

I appreciate your honor system and like the idea.

Myself have decided to simply implement the proven EGT triggers in any mission I come across and feel like setting more 'realistic' limits in.

Last week flew some 'old' missions from when I first learned to fly the Huey, and 'changed / tweaked 'the weight and weather settings in the mission's Mission Editor to make it a tad more challenging, and "realistic" :).

 

I appreciate everyone's input in this thread and am taking my place in the ranks of Huey Belsimtek / DCS fans... :music_whistling::thumbup:

 

Just have fun

[iFoxRomeo]

Fox, I've started to research this topic but getting some conflicting info.

Could you provide some "limits" guidelines so that one can apply the "honor system" while flying the Huey.

Thank you

 

EDIT; Just come across a good resource for UH-1h / Lycoming T53 from DOT/FAA 2004. Would still appreciate your thoughts on limit "ranges" and, brief vs continuous violation of limits.

Thanks again for any advice on this.

 

The limit ranges are set to maintain reliable, non-degrading(short-term), non-destructive operation.

So exceeding these limits, depending on duration and amount of exceedance, increases the failure-probability of vital parts and reduces their performance permanently or even destroys them instantly.

 

The temperature inside the combustion chamber is too high to be measured. To have an idea of this temperature, the temperature at a point after the combustion chamber, where it is low enough for the temperature probes to not melt and give reliable temperature values, is measured.

 

Roughly 75% of the air which is ingested by the engine is for cooling and separating the flame from the combustion chamber.

 

If the flame gets bigger and bigger because of higher and higher fuel injection rates(increased power demand) or less air is ingested (increased altitude and/or outside air temperature) the isolating airflow gets thinner. Once the isolation is too small the flame starts to melt holes into the combustion chamber. This can go quickly and will change the airflow inside the chamber, but not to the positive side. That can than lead to an accelerated destruction of the chamber walls. Fire spreads in the engine compartment. Aircraft personnel gets nervous....

 

Prolonged moderately high EGT might not lead to the destruction of the combustion chamber, but will lead to deformation of the blades inside the engine, both the rotating as well as the fixed ones. Which leads to reduced performance/power output. As this turbine has two shafts.

This will lead to reduces capabilities, first of the gas producer to ingest air, second of the free turbine to convert the hot gas energy into rotational movement.

 

Now look at the given temperature limits for the engine.

Up to 610°C you have continuous operation. That means with additional fuel tanks ~4:15H operation under load! Between 610°C and 625°, so only 1°C to 15°C more, operation is limited to 30 minutes already. There should be some kind of safety margin, but it won´t be too big. So I guess, as I don´t have data for this, increasing the EGT above 630°C the degradation could already start. Further increased EGT would lead to accelerated degradation.

 

This problem is not easy and a simple script just won´t do it.

 

But, as the values for EGT are not correct

->For the time being:

Adopt a cross check pattern where you include EGT, but until correct values and limitations are included, it is a value without use.

 

 

And looking at the other limits:

Do you now Cypher from the movie Matrix? The scene where he talks to agent Smith while eating a steak? ->"Ignorance is bliss"<-

Right now I don´t want to pull anyone out of the matrix. I´m hoping and waiting for DCS 2. After the release of DCS 2 I might start threads with all my findings.

 

In the meantime I encourage everyone to enjoy what we have now.

The flight model is good. Considering the limits that apply for a home computer with short cyclic- and collective sticks, etc, it does really feel good(warning: totally subjective opinion).

 

Fox

[Chic]

Perfect Fox.

Thank you for taking the time.

Chic

[DSPALLASVI]

"...The limit ranges are set to maintain reliable, non-degrading(short-term), non-destructive operation. So exceeding these limits, depending on duration and amount of exceedance, increases the failure-probability of vital parts and

......

the limits that apply for a home computer with short cyclic- and collective sticks, etc, it does really feel good(warning: totally subjective opinion)...."

Thank you IFoxRomeo, good description. Attached is the EGT picture from the manual which I've used for the triggers. Have used those temp ranges and times values, eventhough the DCS values are not correct..., I thought it's something useable until a change has been made...

[iFoxRomeo]

Perfect Fox.

Thank you for taking the time.

Chic

 

You´re welcome.

 

Thank you IFoxRomeo, good description. Attached is the EGT picture from the manual which I've used for the triggers. Have used those temp ranges and times values, eventhough the DCS values are not correct..., I thought it's something useable until a change has been made...

 

Unfortunately the values are so far off that it doesn´t make any sense to create triggers for it.

 

For instance:

Std day, 15°C, QNH 1013/760/2992, wind 090/6kts

Hover OGE, alt 100ft

GW: ~4200kg/9200lb

leads to an EGT of 680°C !!!!!

 

at these conditions it should be still in the continuous rating.

 

So, it might be a good training to set these triggers. But its a training for you to learn the mission editor and the triggers, but not for the real Huey limitations.

 

Fox