USAF gas bill

[Guest IguanaKing]

Water vapor does not just hang in the air, air reaches a point of saturation with water vapor...then it rains or snows. In order to create the fuel in the first place, water has to be taken from the earth, so it leaves a void which will be naturally filled by the emissions of fuel cell vehicles. Water is a natural resource which cannot be consumed, nor can it be overdone...it all eventually returns to its original state. :smilewink:

[Guest IguanaKing]

 

Actualy studies say that the Ozone layer was at the same time an incredibly badly told story and the first (and only) major enviromental victory of the human race. It turns out that the industrial gases only were a fraction of the causes for its decrease. The heavy solar cycle activities of the 80's and 90's and the lack of replenishing gases of, at the same time, lower vulcanic activity were the main factors, and then it still alarmed us enough to make a global anti polution efforts. The Ozone layer is recovering and is projected to do so in the next 30 years. The penguins in the poles wont have to worry about solar burn anymore. Thats untill GWB throws the oil rigs at them though. :D

 

Right on, dude!!! One of the major factors in depletion of the O3 was emissions from Antarctic volcanoes...they emitted Chlorine gas...aka the CFCs that everybody is so worried about. Ionizing radiation from the Sun is also a major player in the equation. Mother nature's got us humans beat though, guys...by a LONG SHOT. :D

[Andrew_McP]

Most people dont realise how much energy it takes to do that.

 

Oil/coal/gas are *incredibly* energy-dense, which is why wind/solar/wave are just p*ssing in the, er, wind when it comes to satisfying current energy needs. The trick is to remember how much effort it takes to push a car when it runs out of fuel. Then consider how much effort it takes to push a fully loaded 747 across an ocean. :-)

 

That's why I'm now, reluctantly, very pro-nuclear. I prefer the risks (Chernobyl was nasty, but entirely preventable) over living with electricity rationing as I approach retirement. The waste problem doesn't bother me. I mean, that's what Nevada's for isn't it? ;-)

 

Andrew McP

 

PS It also helps to remember that a human being on a cycle-powered dynamo can generate about 100w... enough to light a few low energy lightbulbs. Until you stop pedalling anyway.

[Pilotasso]

Water vapor does not just hang in the air, air reaches a point of saturation with water vapor...then it rains or snows. In order to create the fuel in the first place, water has to be taken from the earth, so it leaves a void which will be naturally filled by the emissions of fuel cell vehicles. Water is a natural resource which cannot be consumed, nor can it be overdone...it all eventually returns to its original state. :smilewink:

 

You didnt get the hint... you will get chemical waste from the methanol and then the hydrogen taken from it will use up the oxygen from the atmosphere in the cells, and then you cannot recover the oxygen atoms from the water that comes out of it. You will be having excess of water and oxygen deficiency.

[Andrew_McP]

Mother nature's got us humans beat though, guys...by a LONG SHOT. :D

 

Well, if the Yellowstone dome went up in the air tomorrow our CO2 emmisions wouldn't be an issue, I'll grant you that. But to simply say "we're insignificant compared to nature" is just embarrassingly naive.

 

You can bury your head as far as you like into the sand, but all that changes is your backside gets scorched instead of your head.

 

Andrew McP

[Guest IguanaKing]

It all depends on the method my friend. An excess of water is a physical impossibility. Do we...or do we not have roughly the same amount of water available to us now, as we would have a million years ago?

 

What gases would be produced in natural electrolysis?

[Guest IguanaKing]

Well, if the Yellowstone dome went up in the air tomorrow our CO2 emmisions wouldn't be an issue, I'll grant you that. But to simply say "we're insignificant compared to nature" is just embarrassingly naive.

 

You can bury your head as far as you like into the sand, but all that changes is your backside gets scorched instead of your head.

 

Andrew McP

 

Funny...I never mentioned the Yellowstone caldera. I just mentioned the hole in the ozone layer, which is, apparently in a location in which our own actions don't seem to have an effect. So...you can't debate that and change subjects...oh well. :D

[Pilotasso]

It all depends on the method my friend. An excess of water is a physical impossibility. Do we...or do we not have roughly the same amount of water available to us now, as we would have a million years ago?

 

What gases would be produced in natural electrolysis?

 

Ahh, you forgot about chemistry from your high school years. :D

 

Whater is made up of H2O. Electrolisis makes H2 and O2 by seperating each attom from water (covalence forces them to re combine H's and O's in pairs instead of single atoms). You get twice as many H2's as O2's from this.

You burn the H2's with Amtosferic O2's to form water but then you can just release the O2's from the original electrolisis to the atmosfere canceling its comsumtion. HOWEVER, you need massive amounts of electric power to do this. You would need to have many times more nuclear power plants to make enough juice and then youll always spend more energy on it than what the car will extract from the cell. This means who hasnt a bazilion nuclear plants has to use conventioneal plants wich use up more fuel and polute more than the equivalent in conventional cars.

 

An alternative was to produce methanol to take the H2's from it, wich is energeticaly much less demanding.

So when you take H's from an external substance such as methanol and combine it with atmospheric O2 to form water in the cells, there wont be anything that will replace those O2's consumed and recombined into H20 in the cell. vegetation only process CO2 to return O2's into the air but not with water. Unless you use Electrolisis and then you make the methanol use redundant. And you will get back to electrolisis drawbacks.

[Trident]

... which is, apparently in a location in which our own actions don't seem to have an effect.

 

Don't be so sure about that. Meteorologists are using Antarctic ice samples to learn more about the historical development of the world's climate, in other words EVERYTHING (not just us) seems to have a (very measurable) effect there. Distance means very little in connection with the world's weather system. Remember the temperature changes all over the globe following the Pinatubo eruption in 1991 (or Krakatoa, for that matter)?

[Pilotasso]

The problem is not the global temperature. Its rather a changing enviroment and the species used to old enviroment. We would not cope well in a world that has a seal lever 150 feet higher than it is today nor twice the amount of oxygen in the air we had 200 million years ago (wich allowed gigantic bugs the size of a leg). ;)

[S77th-konkussion]

I have never in my life seen a larger collection of more stupid, paranoid, idiotic, conspiratorial thoughts in my life as here in this thread. And I didn't even past number 12.

 

I had a lot more on here- but I'm not going to waste my time on it. I'm going to simply continue to pursue life, liberty and happiness. My USAF is going to ensure that I keep those freedoms- and I am going to continue to love and respect each and every member of our armed services.

 

They aren't perfect stewards of my tax money- that's the truth- but I know that the problem is in the bureacracy, not the troops themselves.

 

Fly on.

 

I'll add that if our entire government tried to be as careful with money as most of the military- we'd be able to cut our taxes by 2/3.

[hitman]

Did everyone here forget that every living and breathing thing expels lethal methane gas into the environment? Thats right. Think of that next time you enjoy some cabbage and beer with your chinese food. Its true. Dont forget that a single volcanic event releases more sulfer into the air than anything man can do at the moment, not to mention the gases that are released when meteorites burn up in the atmosphere. I wholeheartedly agree we are going thru a climate change, but weve been going through a climate change for the last 65 million years, and 10 ice ages later...I hardly think that us...humans...are going to destroy the Earth with our cars and beer farts.

[zaelu]

I see you all seen that movie from the link I posted :D

 

In that movie at some point there is a guy working on something "like" a hydroelectrolysis system but with a twist.

 

We are allways taking things for granted... even the laws of phisics... that's till they're broked...

 

Oh well... maybe is too bold... or too long... (50 minutes)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Ahh, you forgot about chemistry from your high school years. :D

 

Whater is made up of H2O. Electrolisis makes H2 and O2 by seperating each attom from water (covalence forces them to re combine H's and O's in pairs instead of single atoms). You get twice as many H2's as O2's from this.

You burn the H2's with Amtosferic O2's to form water but then you can just release the O2's from the original electrolisis to the atmosfere canceling its comsumtion. HOWEVER, you need massive amounts of electric power to do this. You would need to have many times more nuclear power plants to make enough juice and then youll always spend more energy on it than what the car will extract from the cell. This means who hasnt a bazilion nuclear plants has to use conventioneal plants wich use up more fuel and polute more than the equivalent in conventional cars.

 

An alternative was to produce methanol to take the H2's from it, wich is energeticaly much less demanding.

So when you take H's from an external substance such as methanol and combine it with atmospheric O2 to form water in the cells, there wont be anything that will replace those O2's consumed and recombined into H20 in the cell. vegetation only process CO2 to return O2's into the air but not with water. Unless you use Electrolisis and then you make the methanol use redundant. And you will get back to electrolisis drawbacks.

 

:megalol: Thank you very much for the chemistry lesson, professor. Is this your way of saying that you were wrong about your "oxygen deficiency" theory? BTW...plant-life also uses oxygen and expels CO2 when there is no light available for photosynthesis. It is a waste product when the plant's metabolic functions are at rest.

 

H2s? O2s? Were we talking about water, or Hydrogen Peroxide?

[S77th-konkussion]

Intresting fact after 9/11 when all planes were grounded over the U.S the world tempeture altered by 1c in the day and in the night in less than 24 hours.

 

 

LMAO omg FACT??? That is the dumbest thing I've ever read! LMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Don't be so sure about that. Meteorologists are using Antarctic ice samples to learn more about the historical development of the world's climate, in other words EVERYTHING (not just us) seems to have a (very measurable) effect there. Distance means very little in connection with the world's weather system. Remember the temperature changes all over the globe following the Pinatubo eruption in 1991 (or Krakatoa, for that matter)?

 

Yes, I remember those things...not quite sure what that has to do with the movement of CFCs though. Weather patterns are heavily influenced by water temperature, hence the ice samples being used for climate studies. CFCs are...well...CFCs, and they don't move the same way. As I said before, the dinosaurs once enjoyed a much warmer climate than what we have now...and I don't think there were people around before them that made it that way :smilewink: ...its a natural cycle.

[S77th-konkussion]

Weather is an amazing thing. It was 96 here day before yesterday and 97 yesterday.

 

Wow, Rugg. Ya better hang it up man. It's all over. :lol:

[warthogmadman987]

Imagine how poeple will argue when there is no oil to be drilled:(

 

My Lord, I hear this all the time in my democratic school system...Now i get it here:huh:

 

This is really funny...

 

Im goin to sit back and enjoy revving my car engine in neutral while hippys hug trees and we argue about fossil fuels.:D

 

no offense or hurt intended, just expressing my views:thumbup:

[SwingKid]

If there isn't a problem, then why is the fuel price going up, and the proposed economic sanctions against Iran exclude oil sales?

 

Money talks.

 

-SK

[brewber19]

I have never in my life seen a larger collection of more stupid, paranoid, idiotic, conspiratorial thoughts in my life as here in this thread. And I didn't even past number 12.

 

I had a lot more on here- but I'm not going to waste my time on it. I'm going to simply continue to pursue life, liberty and happiness. My USAF is going to ensure that I keep those freedoms- and I am going to continue to love and respect each and every member of our armed services.

 

They aren't perfect stewards of my tax money- that's the truth- but I know that the problem is in the bureacracy, not the troops themselves.

 

Fly on.

 

I'll add that if our entire government tried to be as careful with money as most of the military- we'd be able to cut our taxes by 2/3.

 

Konkussion, get a grip, its just a simple discussion/observation about fuel consumption (before the thread got hijacked re: alternative fuels), not a US-bashing thread that you seem to think it is.

 

IIRC one of the forum rules was no tolerance of "Expressions of racism, nationalism, political or religious extremism."

 

You seem overly sensitive, lighten up.

[warthogmadman987]

If there isn't a problem, then why is the fuel price going up, and the proposed economic sanctions against Iran exclude oil sales?

 

Money talks.

 

-SK

 

I am assuming you are talking to me, and you are correct, i didnt mean to state that there isnt a problem. I didnt want it to come across that way if it did. I just find it intersesting that i find this hear at this forum.

 

although this is an airplane forum... idk... it was just odd to me.

[Shaman]

Intresting fact after 9/11 when all planes were grounded over the U.S the world tempeture altered by 1c in the day and in the night in less than 24 hours.

It's related to contrails and global dimming effect (yes also light blocking fumes).

[Trident]

Yes, I remember those things...not quite sure what that has to do with the movement of CFCs though. Weather patterns are heavily influenced by water temperature, hence the ice samples being used for climate studies. CFCs are...well...CFCs, and they don't move the same way. As I said before, the dinosaurs once enjoyed a much warmer climate than what we have now...and I don't think there were people around before them that made it that way :smilewink: ...its a natural cycle.

 

They're not only evaluating the thickness of the ice layers built up each year. They are also looking for ash deposits etc.. What works for volcanic ash is very likely to work for CFCs aswell ;)

[emenance]

Did everyone here forget that every living and breathing thing expels lethal methane gas into the environment? Thats right. Think of that next time you enjoy some cabbage and beer with your chinese food. Its true. Dont forget that a single volcanic event releases more sulfer into the air than anything man can do at the moment, not to mention the gases that are released when meteorites burn up in the atmosphere. I wholeheartedly agree we are going thru a climate change, but weve been going through a climate change for the last 65 million years, and 10 ice ages later...I hardly think that us...humans...are going to destroy the Earth with our cars and beer farts.

very true

[Coffee999]

In a documentery I saw, it said that Mount St. Helen's eruption released more pollution than man has ever created. This is One erruption!

 

I personally don't think man has any effect at all to the enviorment.