Bestandskraft Posted June 13, 2015 Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Pages 160-161 of the game manual describe emergency procedures in case of inadvertent opening of the jet nozzle or afterburner flameout during takeoff. Both procedures are basically identical in the sense that beyond refusal speed, the Full Throttle, Reheat (ФОРС. МАКС.) switch is supposed to be set to Full Throttle (МАКС.) in the hope of restoring engine parameters (meaning, most likely, getting the nozzle to close), and ejecting if this is not accomplished quickly. What I find interesting is that in the game, setting the switch to Full Throttle (МАКС.) never closes a malfunctioning nozzle, while the AUX 2-Pos Nozzle CTRL (АВАР. ВКЛ. 2xПОЗ. СОПЛА) does exactly that. This is presumably why using this switch to restore the correct nozzle position is the first step in the checklist when a nozzle failure occurs in flight (see page 168 of the manual). In this case, the Full Throttle, Reheat (ФОРС. МАКС.) switch is only used if the previous step was unsuccesful. The "MiG-21 Pilot's Operating Instructions", a .pdf of which can be found linked at http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=138880, confirm that the game manual lists the correct procedures. Questions: 1) What exactly does the real-world ФОРС. МАКС. switch do? Does it at least sometimes cause a failed nozzle to close? If so, under which conditions? In the current game implementation it seems to be completely useless apart from disabling the afterburner, which can just as easily be done with the throttle alone. 2) If the ФОРС. МАКС. switch is functionally unable or less likely to close an open nozzle in the real jet, why would one rather eject during takeoff when using the AUX 2-Pos Nozzle CTRL (АВАР. ВКЛ. 2xПОЗ. СОПЛА) switch would close the nozzle and allow one to safely continue the takeoff (given runway length is sufficient for a Full Throttle takeoff), especially since this is done as the first step when a nozzle failure occurs in the air? Edited June 13, 2015 by Bestandskraft Typo
King_Hrothgar Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 1) That switch turns the afterburner system on and off just as the English tool tip and manual say it will. That's all. 2) The general idea seems to be that if the AB glitches during takeoff, turn it off and continue without it if you don't have enough room to stop. If the engine fails completely on takeoff and you don't have enough room to stop, eject.
Bestandskraft Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 Thanks for your reply. How do you account for the fact that the ФОРС. МАКС. switch is supposed to be used not only during afterburner flameouts, but also during an inadvertent opening of the nozzle during takeoff at full throttle and during an airborne jet nozzle failure?
mvsgas Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 Not knowing anything about the Mig-21 ( any version) and basing my opinion on my aircraft experience I would assume it is a secondary engine control. For example in the F-16 (engine F100-PW and F110-GE) both have a hydro-mechanical back up (normally referred to as Sec, short for secondary control) I assume the Mig-21 engine has something similar...but I have no idea. You keep referring to manuals in over a dozen posts, is there anything about that in any of the manuals you mention. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Bestandskraft Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) You keep referring to manuals in over a dozen posts, is there anything about that in any of the manuals you mention. Neither the game manual nor the MiG-21 manual I'm referring to, unless I have overlooked something, explicitly mention secondary engine controls except for the mere existence of an emergency manual nozzle control (AUX 2-Pos Nozzle CTRL, АВАР. ВКЛ. 2xПОЗ. СОПЛА), a facility to manually open the derumble doors (anti-surge shutters) and a facility to manually control the nose cone. Neither manual explains what these switches do on a technical/engineering level. Meaningful (yet obviously incomplete) information is given only in the context of emergency procedures. There is no explict statement that the ФОРС. МАКС. switch enables a secondary engine control per se. Edited June 14, 2015 by Bestandskraft
mvsgas Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 Sorry I'm trying to understand. So, the first emergency, if I understand correctly, it is the exhaust nozzle opening while the engine is at full military power, is that correct? To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Bestandskraft Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 Correct. This causes a loss of thrust which during takeoff with heavy loads and/or insufficient runway length makes it impossible to get airborne. For any further discussion it would be helpful if you downloaded the MiG-21 manual from the link I provided; the book is also available digitally e.g. at http://www.avialogs.com/en/aircraft/ussr/mikoyangurevitch/mig-21/mig-21bis-pilot-s-flight-operating-instructions.html.
mvsgas Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 We got the DCS manual or are you talking about RL only? Trying the switch in DCS (LV33), it cuts the Reheat off and prevents it from re-igniting. The details on how I'm not sure. With lack of knowledge and information, it could be guessed that the nozzle would be rig to the Throttle position to open when reheat (AB) is selected. One of the reason the exhaust nozzle opened could be if the airframe thinks engine it's on reheat (AB) because of bad rigging, damaged component, loose connection, etc. . By moving this switch, the aircraft would ignore throttle position ( my guess) allowing the nozzle to close, so is not commanding the nozzle close like LV12, but stop commanding it to open. This could be a common problems discovered on the Mig. Completely guessing here.... hope this makes since. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Bestandskraft Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 The link I provided links to a real MiG-21 manual, and as I stated in the original post, the in-game manual has the same procedures for the EP in question. As to your explanation, sounds very reasonable. If this could be confirmed with a real-world manual, LN might consider implementing this feature in the game.
King_Hrothgar Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 I did a bit of tinkering with this last night and found that it is possible to manually control the nosecone and an improper setting does cause problems. However, what I found didn't match what that particular section of the manual says. I couldn't figure out exactly what AUX 2-Pos Nozzle CTRL (LV12) does in game but the nose cone control switch (LV7) does allow for taking manual control of the nosecone. Control of it is done via the little knob at CU9. Unfortunately, I had a tough time using it as I didn't have a way of knowing the proper position. I ended up guessing based on trying to get rid of the popping sound. What I ended up with did get me off the ground, but I had a top speed of about 500km/h and I only barely got off the runway in time.
mvsgas Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 The link I provided links to a real MiG-21 manual, and as I stated in the original post, the in-game manual has the same procedures for the EP in question. As to your explanation, sounds very reasonable. If this could be confirmed with a real-world manual, LN might consider implementing this feature in the game. Implementing what feature? Let me know what you find in the RL manual. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Bestandskraft Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 Implementing what feature? The supposed feature that the ФОРС. МАКС. switch does more than JUST disable the afterburner. Let me know what you find in the RL manual. As I already stated in post #5, the RL manual does not contain any additional information applicable to the issue at hand.
mvsgas Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 I confused, LV33 does more than shut off the reheat? If thee RL manual offers no new info, why do you continue to mention it in every post? To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Bestandskraft Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 I did a bit of tinkering with this last night and found that it is possible to manually control the nosecone and an improper setting does cause problems. However, what I found didn't match what that particular section of the manual says. I couldn't figure out exactly what AUX 2-Pos Nozzle CTRL (LV12) does in game but the nose cone control switch (LV7) does allow for taking manual control of the nosecone. Control of it is done via the little knob at CU9. Unfortunately, I had a tough time using it as I didn't have a way of knowing the proper position. I ended up guessing based on trying to get rid of the popping sound. What I ended up with did get me off the ground, but I had a top speed of about 500km/h and I only barely got off the runway in time. Setting the AUX 2-Pos Nozzle CTRL switch to the UP position closes the nozzle regardless of throttle position unless the afterburner is selected, in which case the nozzle remains open. The nose cone is not relevant for the EPs in question.
Bestandskraft Posted June 14, 2015 Author Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) I confused, LV33 does more than shut off the reheat? If thee RL manual offers no new info, why do you continue to mention it in every post? I really appreciate your trying to help solve the issue, but (as so often on the internet) there seem to be fundamental communication difficulties between the two of us (English is not my native language). Our conversation seems to be running in circles. I have obviously failed on various occasions during this conversation to get my point accross, and since I cannot figure out where my comments are ambiguous or misleading, I will now cease clarification attempts. No hard feelings. If anyone can spot the reason why mvsgas and I don't understand each other, feel free to jump in. :D Edited June 14, 2015 by Bestandskraft
Hadwell Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) In DCS the only way for the nose cone to fail is to have it shot out... there are no such thing as maintenance or wear failures... you get a brand new never used before, fully tested and functional airplane every time... so all of this is irrelevant anyway... but all roads lead to the fact that the cone is closed until you activate the burner anyway, so by disabling the burner, yes you are also preventing the cone from opening... not because you disabled the burner, but because the cone doesn't open with the afterburner off... that being the case, disabling the afterburner just ensures you don't bump the throttle by accident... if the cone doesn't close after you activate the burner, then you might have to manually close it again... but like i said... the only way to find that out is to have someone shoot at you until the cone malfunctions, without damaging the rest of your plane (somehow) Edited June 14, 2015 by Hadwell My youtube channel Remember: the fun is in the fight, not the kill, so say NO! to the AIM-120. System specs:ROG Maximus XI Hero, Intel I9 9900K, 32GB 3200MHz ram, EVGA 1080ti FTW3, Samsung 970 EVO 1TB NVME, 27" Samsung SA350 1080p, 27" BenQ GW2765HT 1440p, ASUS ROG PG278Q 1440p G-SYNC Controls: Saitekt rudder pedals,Virpil MongoosT50 throttle, warBRD base, CM2 stick, TrackIR 5+pro clip, WMR VR headset. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Art-J Posted June 14, 2015 Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Dear Lord, why do folks keep bringing nose cone into this conversation, when it's completely off topic to OP's question (emergency exhaust nozzle operation vs. LV12 and LV 33 switches)? "Fundamental communication difficulties" indeed :D. P.S. - I haven't investigated how these switches operate in RL neither. Edited June 14, 2015 by Art-J i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.
ESAc_matador Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 Dear Lord, why do folks keep bringing nose cone into this conversation, when it's completely off topic to OP's question (emergency exhaust nozzle operation vs. LV12 and LV 33 switches)? "Fundamental communication difficulties" indeed :D. P.S. - I haven't investigated how these switches operate in RL neither. Both starts with N...??? I have the same wuestion here. Why is the nozzle switch for in DCS?
Dirty Rotten Flieger Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 That was funny. Right after a post about misunderstandings and miscommunications.... The nose cone is at the front of the jet. This thread is about the automatic exhaust nozzle at the back of the jet. Both have a manual override for when the automatic adjustment system fails. It seems to me that in real life the automatic nozzle exhaust system can fail from time to time and if it does so the pilot has the option to manually override it and force the nozzle closed for maximum thrust. Particularly useful for take off when the pilot needs maximum thrust the most. I haven't tested it in game but if it is simply closing the exhaust pipe when it is flipped then it would appear to be working properly.
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