Berioza as indicator for bogie distance

[Mowgli]

I need an explanation on how to translate the berioza bars as distance to target - I guess that it has to do with the radar distance on the HUD...

 

Thanks

[CASoldier2014]

They DON'T tell you the distance.

[Mowgli]

They DON'T tell you the distance.

 

 

From 06:15 to 07:00 - How Ironhand came to the conclusion that the F-15 is 70km away?

[Boberro]

It can show distance to target but it is not too precise.

Counter goes from right to left. The more lights the closer radar emission (read: probably enemy plane, active missile) is to you.

However there are limitations - Beryoza has scale for radar strenght. It means if both enemy planes are 30 km from you and one is MiG-29 and second MiG-31 with powerful Zaslon, you will get false indication - Beryoza will tell you target is closer than 31 really is.

In DCS reality the 12 o'clock on Beryoza means +-90 km with margin of 10 km.

When you see distance indicator (radar strength) at 9 o'clock better run away - either missile is already going to you or soon will with poor chances of escape.

 

I played DCS last time almost two years ago but I think I still remember this properly.

[WinterH]

They sort of give you an idea of the distance IF you know what is the threat that is displayed. That bars scale shows strength of emission detected, which increases as distance to source decrease.

 

But suppose you have half the lights of the scale lit up, if what's lighting them up is an S-300 or Patriot radar, it can be more than a hundred kilometer away, if it's an F-15 radar, it is probably closer that that but can still be pretty distant, but if it's a MiG-21, it may even be close to merging you.

 

Also similar in a way with TEWS (U.S. RWR), it consists of 3 rings, outermost means least threatening, middle ring potentially threatening, innermost being the most dangerous. But as far as ditance goes, you can see a SA-8 in outermost ring and S-300 in middle, this shouldn't give you an impression of S-300 being closer, it reality it is likely some hours of diriving time further away than SA-8 but it can threaten you from there while the closer SA-8 cannot from where it is, therefore they appear the way they are on display.

 

Then there's MiG-21's Sirena RWR, you see a light go up, and think "oh, I guess something super crappy will happen pretty soon", and dive for the deck, because that is more or less all the information it provides :D.

[Stuge]

They DON'T tell you the distance.

 

Sure it does, sorta.

 

You can judge distance if you know (or guess) the target type.

 

Since the two most popular fighters flown online, F15 and Su27, have a very similar radar strength, just by assuming the bogey is one of these you can judge distance accurately.

 

Now here a Mig29 radar can be deceptive, since it is weaker.

 

Even more so the Mig21 which you could easily assume is 40 miles away, by looking at radar strength, while in fact it is close and about to kill you :)

[Mowgli]

Thanks Guys for the Info - I summarized it all to few key points - gonna practice some more tonight.

 

The weakness of the Flanker's radar in combination with the SARH as it is simulated in DCS put's it in disadvantage to the Eagle Hence the Priority to familiarize the Berioza and IRST to the optimum

[srky]

Aaaaand... here's the table:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=30123

[DarkFire]

As others have commented, the signal strength meter on the SPO-15 provides information that can be used to deduce rough range to the emitter, if you're intimately familiar with it. This is information that the TEWS on the F-15 is simply incapable of providing. Like a lot of the Russian kit, it gives many intersting capabilities but demands a lot from the user and creates a much higher work load than equivalent NATO gear.

 

The table that srky linked is really useful to add on to your knee board, though I question whether the data relating to the MiG-25 is accurate. Apart from that it's an incredibly useful template.

[sobe]

One question on the chart.

The chart indicates that when the RWR is at +7 (full ark), an F15 is "14". Is that 14km (about 7.5 miles) or is it 14 miles?

 

A second question is that in the video and elsewhere I have heard that if the bogy is more than 45 degrees off of your nose, the RWR will lose him. Is that correct?

[FLANKERATOR]

Unit for Russian avionics is Km.

 

As for the 45 deg off nose, I've never heard of that before but what I know is that banking your aircraft past 30 deg may make your RWR loose the signal.

[esb77]

A second question is that in the video and elsewhere I have heard that if the bogy is more than 45 degrees off of your nose, the RWR will lose him. Is that correct?

 

No, this is about vertical angle. The antenna placement for the Berioza does not allow it to "see" at steep angles up or down from the aircraft's midline. If you bank steeply you will loose radar threats pointed at the belly of the aircraft. You also won't pick up anything pointed at the top of the aircraft.

 

I thought it was + or - 30 degrees, but I haven't looked recently, it may be 45.

 

A different limitation of the SPO is that the angle markers are much finer toward the nose of the aircraft.

 

If the target is directly ahead of you the RWR can tell you that with high precision. If the radar is to the side or behind you, it's more along the lines of, "to your right, or behind you." If you want to know exactly where to the side or behind, you either need datalink from another aircraft on the Flanker's HDD or you need to turn until you're facing the target within about 45 degrees.

 

 

To summarize: the RWR can't see at steep angles toward the dorsal or ventral sides of the aircraft, so if you bank sharply toward or away from a target that is not directly in front of or behind the aircraft you may loose that contact on the RWR. In the lateral plane of the aircraft, the RWR has 360 degree coverage, but the heading information is most detailed within plus or minus 45 degrees of the nose of the aircraft.

 

As always, if you wish to master the systems in DCS aircraft it is highly recommended that you read the relevant parts of the manuals.

Edited July 18, 2015 by esb77

[Wizard_03]

Then there's MiG-21's Sirena RWR, you see a light go up, and think "oh, I guess something super crappy will happen pretty soon", and dive for the deck, because that is more or less all the information it provides :D.

 

Haha :lol: it's so true, it's the "something wants to kill you warning indicator"

[Stuge]

One question on the chart.

The chart indicates that when the RWR is at +7 (full ark), an F15 is "14". Is that 14km (about 7.5 miles) or is it 14 miles?

 

A second question is that in the video and elsewhere I have heard that if the bogy is more than 45 degrees off of your nose, the RWR will lose him. Is that correct?

 

To first one: kilometers.

 

To second one:

F-15C RWR blind zones. Imagine two 45-degree cones. One projects straight up from your pilot's head. The other projects straight down from your pilot's anus. These projections tilt and turn as your plane tilts and turns obviously. This is why threats may disappear during turns.

 

Let's take an example: you fly straight and level, and an AMRAAM is fired at you from 3 o'clock. You see the warning, and roll left 90 degrees for a defensive left turn to escape. When you're tilted 90 degrees to left, the warning disappears because you are now pointing your pilot's anus towards the missile :lol: However, don't be fooled, the missile is probably still tracking. Once you have either turned enough (so the threat is behind you) or come out of the roll, the threat reappears.

 

In Russian planes the blind zones are similar, but larger (60-degree cones)

 

Another way of seeing this is that the RWR sees 360 degrees around you, but only 45 degrees up/down relative to your attitude in US RWR and 30 degrees up/down in Russian RWR.

[sobe]

OK thanks for the answers.

[blueskunk]

hi,

 

behold my graphical skillz!

 

from the manual:

 

The system provides detection of radar signals at the following angles: Azimuth - +/- 180, and Elevation Range - +/- 30.

that means the limitation cone has an angle of 120 degrees (see attachment).

 

i added the distance (radius of the cones base) for various altitudes: flying at 10000m the rwr would detect a radar signal up to 17 km of a target flying at sea level.

 

Edited July 26, 2015 by blueskunk

[Ragnarok]

-TEWS distinguishes 1km. The problem is a landmark displacements.

 

-second, problem with blind zones +/- 30deg, you can cover controlled with roll.

 

-thirdly, light volume in reality, at the same distance, shows different intensity in relation to altitude, weather conditions, air humidity...

[GGTharos]

... and radar mode. I don't think it would be as reliable as it seems to be right now (but maybe ALMOST).

 

Certainly modern RWR's will give you some form of distance indication - USN documents their RWRs as doing so.

[Grigs]

Are radars always emitting at the same power? If we pick up a single radar, in a single plane (a unique radar so to say), would it be possible for it to emit at different powers?

[GGTharos]

In the game, they always emit at the same power.

[Grigs]

Sure. What about reality? :)

[GGTharos]

In reality, it depends :)

[L0op8ack]

Just talk about TEWS/RWR in this game, and the old LO/FC

 

TEWS/RWR is just the same thing: 'Abstract RWR'

 

A little analysis of 'Abstract RWR':

In this game, 'Emitter Power' is linear to 'Distance'.

Emitter Power = 1.0 - Ctype * Distance * E-6

For Su27 and F15, Ctype = 5

 

SPO light the RWR 'lights' linearly to the 'Emitter Power', that's why you can read distance according the 'lights', empirically.

TEWS doses not show symbols linearly to 'Emitter Power', so you have to estimate the distance.

Edited July 27, 2015 by L0op8ack