Another one about the trimmer and autopilot

[tacky_taco]

Ok, so I've read, I've watched videos, and I've played around with it...

 

A question - say I've trimmed, got pitch, bank and heading channels on and am heading in a straight line. I now want to do a 180 turn. What is the correct way to do this? Do I hold the trimmer down the entire time and spend time stabilizing in the opposite direction before releasing? Should I go in small increments? Do I turn off the autopilot channels and then turn? Should I just turn off some of them? Should I just do the turn and then retrim when turned around?

 

I'm really at a loss here, any input appreciated :)

[159th_Falcon]

Either one of those, according to your own preference;

 

Press the trimmer, make the turn, stabilize as you like and release the trimmer

Make the turn, stabilize and then trim

Trim in a number of stebs troughout the turn

 

Though, in 99% of the real helicopters the first one would be the method used.

 

Neither of them is wrong or right though, all have benefits and drawbacks because of simulation limitations.

[King_Hrothgar]

There is no right or wrong way to do it so long as it works. With that said, the easiest way for me is to switch FD mode on, turn around and once retrimmed (if needed), disable FD mode. I should point out that I spend 99% of the time in FD mode anyways, so this is more of a theoretical thing. But on the rare occasion I'm in a true AP mode, that's how I change course.

[tacky_taco]

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I'll try to fly with the Flight Director more and rely less on the autopilot for normal flying around. As far as I understand it with FD on you still get the dampening of the different channelse, you just don't have to fight the autopilot?

[Fishbreath]

Yes, but flying with FD on is a significant handicap over using the autopilot well when it comes to combat usage.

 

My feeling is that the most correct method, given the hardware most of us have, is to press and hold the trimmer through maneuvers. (FFB users can get away with the method shown in some of the Ka-50 videos, where the pilots tap the trimmer repeatedly through the course of a maneuver.) Note that the helicopter behaves as though FD mode were on when the trimmer is held down.

[King_Hrothgar]

I disagree with that Fish, other than sometimes using hover hold in a low threat environment, I wouldn't even consider using the regular AP anywhere near a combat area. Flying into battle on AP is fundamentally a terrible idea. And even when using hover hold, I have a finger sitting on the emergency AP disable button the whole time. AP is a very, very dangerous thing in an area where someone might shoot at you.

 

Regardless, you have it right Tacky, the FD mode converts any active AP modes into a stabilization mode. It makes flying a lot smoother, though you do sacrifice a little agility compared to full manual control.

[Yurgon]

The good old trimmer and AP discussions, yeah, haven't had any of these in a while. :D

 

I disagree with that Fish, other than sometimes using hover hold in a low threat environment, I wouldn't even consider using the regular AP anywhere near a combat area. Flying into battle on AP is fundamentally a terrible idea. And even when using hover hold, I have a finger sitting on the emergency AP disable button the whole time. AP is a very, very dangerous thing in an area where someone might shoot at you.

 

What's wrong with AP in combat?

 

I mean, that is exactly the scenario it was designed for - to significantly lower the workload and allow the pilot to work the systems rather than focusing on flying the chopper.

 

If you fly with FD on all the time, you sacrifice quite a few of the benefits the Kamov designers came up with for your convenience.

 

Personally, when I ignored what forum members told me and switched on FD all the time, initially I think it was a tremendous help in order to learn how to fly and how to control the chopper. But over time, I trained to use AP without FD. Nowadays, I rarely fly the Ka-50, but if I go anywhere near the enemy, I'm just glad the chopper can literally fly by itself (and I'm glad I know how to have it do just that).

 

One more thing regarding AP disable: Do you mean the "Autopilot emergency disengage" button?

That one disconnects all channels at once, so I wouldn't touch it unless there was an actual emergency condition with the AP itself. Otherwise, I think it's a terribly bad idea to lose all stability augmentation right when I need all the maneuverability I can get (unless the plan was to confuse an incoming missile by oscillating out of the sky first :D). Besides, given that the AP is limited to 20% authority, the pilot can always override it. IMO, pushing the trim button or activating FD are inherently preferable over AP emergency disengage (plus, the Auto Hover toggle is right next to AP emergency disengage :smartass:).

[StrongHarm]

Agreed. I used to use trim exclusively until I learned that I can turn AP heading off, make my correction, then turn it back on to stay in that heading (same affect as trim).. all to much better effect. I eventually settled in to using Emerg. AP Off to turn off all channels when I need to perform agile flight. There's no good reason to leave AP channels on all the time unless you're in a hover... you just end up fighting it. Let me caution you that without stabilization you have to learn the limits and stay within them.. instead of having them imposed upon you through AP. It takes some getting used to, but it's well worth it. I've been flying a long time and this was probably the biggest step in my proficiency.

 

One good exercise I do: Find a building or stationary vehicle and do a 'funnel maneuver' around it.. get 20-30kph side slip and keep your nose on the target so you circle the object while facing it. Try this with AP on and AP off. You'll really see the difference in the agility of the bird.

 

Allow me to present this disclaimer before the debate embroils (:)Yurgon:)): I have no interest in arguing the matter.. this is simply my personal preference and recommendation. Feel free to disregard.

 

I disagree with that Fish, other than sometimes using hover hold in a low threat environment, I wouldn't even consider using the regular AP anywhere near a combat area. Flying into battle on AP is fundamentally a terrible idea. And even when using hover hold, I have a finger sitting on the emergency AP disable button the whole time. AP is a very, very dangerous thing in an area where someone might shoot at you.

 

Regardless, you have it right Tacky, the FD mode converts any active AP modes into a stabilization mode. It makes flying a lot smoother, though you do sacrifice a little agility compared to full manual control.

[Yurgon]

There's no good reason to leave AP channels on all the time unless you're in a hover... you just end up fighting it.

[...]

Allow me to present this disclaimer before the debate embroils (:)Yurgon:)): I have no interest in arguing the matter.. this is simply my personal preference and recommendation. Feel free to disregard.

 

Haha. :D

 

Let me present at least one good reason nonetheless:

 

10 FLIGHT SCHOOL

 

General Requirements

 

[...]

 

It is recommended that the helicopter always be flown with the autopilot (AP) modes

engaged; this provides much greater stability in all flight regimes. Nevertheless, flights

can be performed without AP in case of systems failure or training purposes. The Ka-50 is

still quite controllable without AP assists.

 

:smartass:

[StrongHarm]

Be that as it may; try my exercise, then if AP off still scares you, disregard everything I said.

[Yurgon]

Be that as it may; try my exercise, then if AP off still scares you, disregard everything I said.

 

I think I previously said (or quoted) that switching AP off is indeed a good exercise. :hehe:

 

For all I know, it's just not the recommended way of flying this bird. Or do you have information pointing to the contrary?

 

Now, just so we're on the same page, I'm all for each of us flying the Ka-50 the way we feel most comfortable.

 

It's just that some of what you propose goes against what is suggested in the manual and what I read time and again on the forum, quite often referring to RL procedures (which may or may not be cited correctly; I never actually read them myself).

 

If I understand correctly, you suggest that flying with AP off yields better maneuverability and should thus be in every pilot's toolkit. For all I know, RL operations with AP off all but prohibited. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from flying this way, but personally I wouldn't actively encourage it (for anything other than training and emergency procedure purposes), either. :blow:

[secret1962]

I too disliked the way the AP acted (before we could have the option to disable rudder trim) and was flying without any channel, not even FD.

Now I use it everytime (pitch and bank when I want to do aerobatics, maybe I will enable heading aswell someday). When I am in hover I activate all 4 channels. I rather use terrain masking rather than continuously moving over the target area... after all we're not fixed wing. And you'll not like sams ;)

 

P.S. I think I have also enabled the other option in MISC, since I don't have a FFB joystick, so the input gets taken when I recenter my joystick.. otherwise most of the times the helo would go nuts and break :)

Edited July 24, 2015 by secret1962

[King_Hrothgar]

I think I previously said (or quoted) that switching AP off is indeed a good exercise. :hehe:

 

For all I know, it's just not the recommended way of flying this bird. Or do you have information pointing to the contrary?

 

Now, just so we're on the same page, I'm all for each of us flying the Ka-50 the way we feel most comfortable.

 

It's just that some of what you propose goes against what is suggested in the manual and what I read time and again on the forum, quite often referring to RL procedures (which may or may not be cited correctly; I never actually read them myself).

 

If I understand correctly, you suggest that flying with AP off yields better maneuverability and should thus be in every pilot's toolkit. For all I know, RL operations with AP off all but prohibited. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from flying this way, but personally I wouldn't actively encourage it (for anything other than training and emergency procedure purposes), either. :blow:

 

I see absolutely no reason for us to limit our flying and tactics to what a video game manual recommends. In any case, do what works best for you.

[erjdriver]

What does flying with "AP OFF" or "AP ON" mean.

 

I understand, if you're in route or hover mode - AP is working actively.

 

If both those modes are off - then AP is just assisting you up to a certain limit - but you're flying manually.

 

When you say fly with "AP OFF" - do you mean turning all the channels off also?

[Fri13]

I use en route Auto-Pilot mode only when I am flying at/away from the combat zone.

The hover mode I use when I need to spend time waiting and observing, especially on combat zone. Why Hover function enable/disable is important.

 

Otherwise I always have all channels in use all the time in everything and I only control flight with trimmer. In emergency situations when I need to avoid something, I just press trim down and I can't even in panic crash the helicopter because it dampens the radical moves to correct ones. Why I don't have Flight Director button (fifth next to AP channels) binded even because I can do that just with thumb in the stick.

 

 

 

The rarely used feature for me is the Auto-Turn that I use only when I strafe to get Line Of Sight to target at further distance (like 8-10km) while I can observe surroundings same time.

[StrongHarm]

Yurgon, I am indeed actively and deliberately encouraging AP off. I'm not referring to AP off as a flight exercise, but rather a frequent and standard procedure.

 

erjdriver, I'm referring to turning all AP channels off. I wouldn't recommend this when trying to achieve stable flight or while in hover or on takeoff, but when you want the freedom of an agile bird it makes a big difference. I find it convenient to have the AP functions set up on CMS:

 

CMS FWD - AP Heading

CMS LFT - AP Bank

CMS RT - AP Pitch

CMS BK - AP Altitude

CMS Push - AP Emerg. Off

 

I now switch the channels on and off with the same automatic regard as I control pitch with the stick axis. Once I got used to it I found it was a big asset... particularly AP Heading. I realized that no matter how you fly you're fighting the AP to some degree, especially during hard maneuvering. Though again, while in stable flight AP is sometimes invaluable, kind of like fly-by-wire compensation for an unstable bird such as the 117.

[erjdriver]

erjdriver, I'm referring to turning all AP channels off. I wouldn't recommend this when trying to achieve stable flight or while in hover or on takeoff, but when you want the freedom of an agile bird it makes a big difference.

 

Sure - but why not hold the trimmer down (that disables all the channels) - do what you need to do and then release the trimmer.

 

Seems much more efficient - but to each his own.

[Fishbreath]

The ease-of-maneuver gains from FD mode are useful for rocket runs in tight quarters, or if you need to evade fire quickly. I don't think it's worthwhile to use FD mode outside of those circumstances, and while I'm perfectly capable of flying the helo without any of the AP channels on at all (usually as a result of battle damage), it's a vastly greater load on the pilot.

 

I don't think that there are any combat efficiency gains for veteran pilots ignoring the autopilots, and I certainly don't think it's appropriate to encourage newcomers to try to fly in combat without the helo's assistance. (And I say that as someone who encourages people to learn to fly by using FD mode all the time, on the grounds that you have to understand how the helo flies before you can use the autopilot to full effect.) It's artificially increasing the difficulty, like flying the Eagle with Sparrows or the Su-27 with just EOS.

 

As erjdriver said, though, to each his own. If it works for you, it works for you.

[StrongHarm]

I don't see how making this suggestion could be "inappropriate".. I wish I'd started doing it earlier as I would have mastered the airframe much quicker. Leaving AP on all the time is like never taking off the training wheels. I know we're a world of skeptics these days, but I would encourage you to explore my previous posts without arbitrarily dismissing them. If only one person is perceptive enough to do so then my time was not wasted.

 

Out.

[erjdriver]

The ease-of-maneuver gains from FD mode are useful for rocket runs in tight quarters, or if you need to evade fire quickly.

 

Fish

 

Isn't flying with the 3 auto-pilot channels ON and NOT in route or hover mode - flying manually (i.e. active AP off - it's helping up to 20%).

 

In the above scenario what's the difference with having FD off or on besides the HUD symbology.

[Yurgon]

In any case, do what works best for you.

 

Don't worry about me, I sure do. ;)

 

We're also in agreement here. Everybody should just find out what works best for them.

 

I don't see how making this suggestion could be "inappropriate".. I wish I'd started doing it earlier as I would have mastered the airframe much quicker.

 

As I said above, whatever works best for you is great.

 

IMHO, the notion "This works best for me and everybody should do it exactly like I do!" is not.

 

There's a reason the systems work like they do. I strongly believe newcomers should learn these systems so they can make an informed decision about their preferred flying style.

 

If they follow your advice, they'll miss out on many awesome and great things about the Ka-50 that should, in theory, drastically improve their combat capabilities.

If, on the other hand, they learn the systems and then decide they prefer AP off, hey, that's great.

 

(Let me try a comparison: If I said to new Hog drivers "I never read the A-10C manual and you don't need it, either. Just hop online and find someone to teach you. Seriously. Ignore the manual. Don't read it! Ever!", what would be your reaction?)

 

Finally, as long as you're fighting the AP, are you sure you "mastered" the airframe?

 

Post finally, I danced around with the Ka-50 for a couple of minutes last night. With all AP channels off, I feel that the helicopter is less stable (to be expected). But it didn't feel more responsive. Just, dunno, a little "whacky" maybe. IMO there were several downsides with no upsides to switching off all AP channels (also to be expected, I guess). But the point is not that I might change my flying style after maybe 200 hours (could be 300 or 500, no clue, I lost too many logbooks to keep track). The point is that I strongly believe newcomers should learn to fly the proper way and only then decide what works best for them.

[Fishbreath]

I don't see how making this suggestion could be "inappropriate".. I wish I'd started doing it earlier as I would have mastered the airframe much quicker. Leaving AP on all the time is like never taking off the training wheels. I know we're a world of skeptics these days, but I would encourage you to explore my previous posts without arbitrarily dismissing them. If only one person is perceptive enough to do so then my time was not wasted.

 

Out.

 

Flying with AP channels off is a fun diversion and useful emergency practice. It's not a good place to start, and it's not necessary to understand how the Ka-50 flies. FD mode+pitch/bank/yaw is more than enough for a newcomer to learn the helicopter without the AP getting in the way, and without the added difficulty of having to do damping and stability control yourself. This has been my experience both learning the helo myself, and teaching three or four others how to fly it.

 

I'm not saying it's bad practice to momentarily turn off AP channels, or to practice flying without them. (Like I said, I frequently find myself RTBing without AP control because of battle damage—it's a skill every Ka-50 pilot should develop eventually.) I'm saying it's not a good way to teach someone new how to fly it, because it adds in a whole new set of challenges that the FLCS ordinarily handles without bugging you about them.

 

Fish

 

Isn't flying with the 3 auto-pilot channels ON and NOT in route or hover mode - flying manually (i.e. active AP off - it's helping up to 20%).

 

In the above scenario what's the difference with having FD off or on besides the HUD symbology.

 

Not quite. AP channels on, active AP off is still autopilot-controlled—it'll attempt to hold pitch, bank, and heading. Holding the trimmer or turning on FD mode instructs the AP to stop attempting to hold pitch/bank/heading, but leaves the stabilization and damping effects on.

 

Try an experiment: enable all four AP channels, then trim for forward flight. The helo should fly itself hands off, barring any rapid changes in terrain. Then turn on FD mode and retrim for a steady forward flight. Unless you get the trim dead on, you'll have to keep your hands on the controls and make adjustments to maintain the same flight parameters.

 

The point is that I strongly believe newcomers should learn to fly the proper way and only then decide what works best for them.

 

Preach. :P

[StrongHarm]

You guys should frequent Reddit, you'd be in your element.

 

The topic was concerning the continuous use of trim while making course changes. I think this is silly. You simply turn heading AP off, make your change, then turn it back on.. you'll still be nicely trimmed for pitch/bank. Another topic arose concerning the fact that 'you should never, God forbid, turn off AP channels'.. this is like saying 'never turn off the traction control on your car'.. there are certainly useful cases in which to do so (my Camaro 2SS will happily confirm). I personally turn off all AP channels when I need to, and while I have velocity, I experience no instability but have (careful) added agility. I really can't be more clear and arguing doesn't appeal to me. Carry on.

[secret1962]

The AP should be used when you begin mastering the helo.

 

If you want to fly without it then fine, but that skill should come in place only in emergencies. Having the need to fly around the target area very quickly to evade enemy fire is poor mission/environment planning.

 

If it works for you good for you, but me coming as a AP-off pilot in the earlier days, I now use AP all the time. It'll also come in hand when you want to be very agile and not risk damaging the helo yourself.

 

Anyway it's very clear that everyone should practice flying in every situation.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[kingpinda]

I'm with StrongHarm.

 

There is another option though: Fly the Huey Campaign. It really increased my helo skills significantly. If you don't have the Huey module then turning off all AP channels is a good substitute.

 

We need to remember that all KA-50 and KA-52 pilots have their Helo proficiency long before they have even set foot in this particular attack chopper.

 

The KA-50 is NOT a normal chopper. Its a VERY EASY (this is a good thing because you need to do the shooting as well) helo to fly with the AP channels and its power source. If you want to know how a "normal" helo flies like then the HUEY is a very good place to start in the virtual world. Coming from the KA-50 I had a lot of difficulty "mastering" the Huey but boy did it made me a better pilot.

 

When I started flying the KA-50 the way it was meant to fly, I apparantly completely skipped the basics of helo flight which comes from experience of flying "normal" Helo's. I didn't notice any ground in effect because the engine is so powerful. I didnt understand though why i was hopping up and down when trying to land. even with auto hover and the AP channels it took me quite some time to get in a stable hover with the KA-50. revisiting after flying the Huey it was childsplay. Due to the AP channels the power source and the forgiving nature of the KA-50 I was apparently very rough with my flying. Now i CAN be rough when I have to but understanding principles of helo flight a bit better I actually have to do less to get the same or better effect. Instead of overcompensating all the time.

 

But if we are just talking about turning then I too simply press the trimmer on my FFB G940 stick.

Edited July 24, 2015 by kingpinda