AI SEAD suck at their job

[VAF [136] Striker]

I can't get the AI SEAD to do anything I task them with doing. If I place a Su-25T SEAD mission and give them waypoints to the target area the fly willy nilly all over the place and target stuff I don't want them to.

 

I tried setting it up as a general mission with "nothing" and then set the waypoint before they get to their objective to "SEAD" and then set the "perform task" to "search and destroy in zone" but they fly right past the target area and do nothing.

 

I've tried to give them individual targets and they fire on one target, dump their stores and fly away but most of the time they fly right over the SAM's and get destroyed. Even when I set them to passive defense their behavior is completely messed up.

 

Can someone tell me how to set them up to perform correctly please?

[Joni]

yeah, plus they drop all ordinance at the minimum sign of threat :(

[NineLine]

I can't get the AI SEAD to do anything I task them with doing. If I place a Su-25T SEAD mission and give them waypoints to the target area the fly willy nilly all over the place and target stuff I don't want them to.

 

I tried setting it up as a general mission with "nothing" and then set the waypoint before they get to their objective to "SEAD" and then set the "perform task" to "search and destroy in zone" but they fly right past the target area and do nothing.

 

I've tried to give them individual targets and they fire on one target, dump their stores and fly away but most of the time they fly right over the SAM's and get destroyed. Even when I set them to passive defense their behavior is completely messed up.

 

Can someone tell me how to set them up to perform correctly please?

 

Are your flight paths complete as in they have an end wp for landing? I find with some tasks if you dont set a final waypoint with a landing command, they can go off on their own and find their own place to land without completing a task.

 

yeah, plus they drop all ordinance at the minimum sign of threat :(

 

That has been addressed in 2.0. There is now a ME option to stop wingmen from doing that.

Edited July 28, 2015 by NineLine

[VAF [136] Striker]

Yes, I give them complete waypoints just like any other flight. If I start it out as a SEAD flight when I place the aircraft on the map, they divert to a completely different area than where I want them to engage. I placed SA10's off in the distance to simulate the environment and they go towards them instead of the SA6 that I want them to target that's closer.

[NineLine]

Might be better in this case to set what units you want them to go after then, if you leave it up to them, its possible they are thinking on their own, and thats never a good thing for that AI to do :)

 

You could even set priorities I think, like set them to first kill the SA6s and then set them to go after the SA10s, or RTB after the SA6's are dead... depending on what you want them to do.

 

You sort of have to spoon feed the AI in some cases...

[joey45]

Tried with a 2 ship of tornados complete waypoints and target and only one dropped their load.

[NineLine]

Guys, if one of you can share your mission (only because then I know I am testing what you are doing) I can try it in 2.0. Its possibly a bug. Preferably the OP original mission, please and thank you. PM me if you dont want to share it publicly.

[VAF [136] Striker]

Might be better in this case to set what units you want them to go after then, if you leave it up to them, its possible they are thinking on their own, and thats never a good thing for that AI to do :)

 

You could even set priorities I think, like set them to first kill the SA6s and then set them to go after the SA10s, or RTB after the SA6's are dead... depending on what you want them to do.

 

You sort of have to spoon feed the AI in some cases...

I don't know what you mean by setting priorities. Can you give me an example? I already tried to give them specific targets and zones and neither worked.

[joey45]

Guys, if one of you can share your mission (only because then I know I am testing what you are doing) I can try it in 2.0. Its possibly a bug. Preferably the OP original mission, please and thank you. PM me if you dont want to share it publicly.

 

Let me take out my ship mods first.

[joey45]

Here you go.

TornadoSEADTest.zip

[NineLine]

Here you go.

 

Danke! Scottyman, if you can send yours too, the more the merrier... I will check more when I get home.

[VAF [136] Striker]

Danke! Scottyman, if you can send yours too, the more the merrier... I will check more when I get home.

OK, I will send you the file in the 3 different ways that I've been trying to make it work.

[NineLine]

Perfect, thanks

[VAF [136] Striker]

Perfect, thanks

OK, here are the files.

[NineLine]

Cool, will take a look at them tonight, 3 year old permitting :)

[Exorcet]

I would not rely on the default SEAD task (or any default task), I delete them and use Search and Engage... typically.

 

If you want another mission to test SEAD AI in, here is one:

 

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/1037610/

 

You can look at the German Tornado at mission start and the F/A-18's later in the mission.

[NineLine]

There have been some improvements to SEAD with the coming AI improvements, what they will help I am not sure, but this seems like a good thing to test with.

[VAF [136] Striker]

I would not rely on the default SEAD task (or any default task), I delete them and use Search and Engage... typically.

 

If you want another mission to test SEAD AI in, here is one:

 

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/1037610/

 

You can look at the German Tornado at mission start and the F/A-18's later in the mission.

I tried doing everything like you did and most of this I was doing before but they just turn at the waypoint and head home. They do absolutely nothing. Also, I have their altitude set at 8000 feet and for some reason they dive down to 800 feet about 10 miles from their first turn point. So I have no idea what's causing this to happen. I've attached the mission.

[Grimes]

Its not so much the AI suck at their job as it is understanding the differences between the different tasks and how it will effect AI behavior.

 

I can't get the AI SEAD to do anything I task them with doing. If I place a Su-25T SEAD mission and give them waypoints to the target area the fly willy nilly all over the place and target stuff I don't want them to.

 

By default for any enroute task AI are given they will attack any valid target as long as it is detected and then prioritize as such. Its meant to be a quick and easy way to get AI to fullfill a given objective at the downside of there being no control. The problem with AI jamming or large radars like long range sams is that it acts as a "shoot me" beacon for AI with default tasks. Thats why in your sead only miz file you attached the flight engages the SA-6s and S-300 at Anapa, but eventually detect the S-300 at Krasnodar and Maykop and head for those.

 

 

I tried setting it up as a general mission with "nothing" and then set the waypoint before they get to their objective to "SEAD" and then set the "perform task" to "search and destroy in zone" but they fly right past the target area and do nothing.

 

Did you set the main task on the red arrow to nothing or just no task in advanced waypoint actions? Because there is a HUGE difference...

 

If you select "nothing" as the main task in the main group menu area rather than tasks, then the AI won't ever attack anything. If the main task is still SEAD and there are simply no advanced waypoint tasks until a given WP, then the AI will still follow those tasks once they reach the given waypoint.

 

 

I've tried to give them individual targets and they fire on one target, dump their stores and fly away but most of the time they fly right over the SAM's and get destroyed. Even when I set them to passive defense their behavior is completely messed up.

 

Passive defense isn't all that useful again an S-300 that has little more range than the Kh-58U. Thus the AI just kind of fly into the missiles, any option that allows evading fire would be best option.

 

I've attached a version that seems to get the job done. I used the "SearchandEngageInZone" task but made a single zone that encompasses the targets. I also moved the waypoints around and added an extra waypoint between given the task and landing to give the AI more time to detect and attack targets.

 

That said multitasking among a single group of AI can lead to problems depending on the targets. In this case an S-300 is a target which has a number of factors working against default AI behavior.

1. Long range missiles outrange SEAD weaponry

2. Multiple radars

3. Capable of shooting down SEAD missiles.

4. Can track and shoot at a large number of missiles.

5. SEAD AI never "double tap" or engage a single target with multiple aircraft/missiles.

 

The 2nd seadzone mission you attached has more of an ideal way of multitasking AI via splitting them into multiple flights. The only change I would make is have a pair of 2 ships. One engages the SA-6s with a single "engage in zone" task like I set up in my sample. And then the other pair has "search and engage unit" for the S-300 and you make sure to use "group attack" or specify the weapon type and expend number to force the AI to launch multiple missiles on a single target.

VCVW14_Novorossiysk_Morning_seadzone_singleBigOne.miz

[VAF [136] Striker]

Did you set the main task on the red arrow to nothing or just no task in advanced waypoint actions? Because there is a HUGE difference...

If you select "nothing" as the main task in the main group menu area rather than tasks, then the AI won't ever attack anything. If the main task is still SEAD and there are simply no advanced waypoint tasks until a given WP, then the AI will still follow those tasks once they reach the given waypoint.

Yes, I did do it correctly according to your statement. I had actually tried it a bunch of different ways. I found out back awhile ago that if you set them to nothing they do nothing.

 

Passive defense isn't all that useful again an S-300 that has little more range than the Kh-58U. Thus the AI just kind of fly into the missiles, any option that allows evading fire would be best option.

I did not know this so from now on I will use the default evasion. And I have seen the AI just fly right into the SAM missiles. It's like they have "stupid" built into them even if you put them on "expert" setting.

 

But just so you know, it's right in the specifications in the encyclopedia about the ranges. The SA10 with the 5V55 missile which is modeled in DCS World has a range of about 25 miles and the Kh58U has a range of 44, so technically the AI should be able to shoot the SA10's with 58's all day long without being anywhere near inside their envelope. The Kh25MPU has a range of about 16 miles. I fly SEAD quite frequently in the Su-25T and kill SA10's without any problem.

 

I've attached a version that seems to get the job done. I used the "SearchandEngageInZone" task but made a single zone that encompasses the targets. I also moved the waypoints around and added an extra waypoint between given the task and landing to give the AI more time to detect and attack targets.

Why does this give the AI more time to search? I'm not clear on what the logic is there. Also, I tried moving the action (search) waypoint inside the search zone and the AI just went home. When I left it outside the zone like you have it they did a perfect search and destroyed almost all the targets with one plane loss. Why is it that putting the waypoint inside the zone would cause this behavior?

 

That said multitasking among a single group of AI can lead to problems depending on the targets. In this case an S-300 is a target which has a number of factors working against default AI behavior.

1. Long range missiles outrange SEAD weaponry

2. Multiple radars

3. Capable of shooting down SEAD missiles.

4. Can track and shoot at a large number of missiles.

5. SEAD AI never "double tap" or engage a single target with multiple aircraft/missiles.

Yes, I'm starting to understand the problems with AI multitasking. It seems like you have to stick with giving them one specific task and leave it at that. It seems to be better to make multiple different flights with single tasks rather than the converse.

 

Because the Kh58U has a range of 44 (70km) miles and the SA10 only 25, my logic was that the AI pilot should use the Kh58 first to engage the 64H6E BigBird radar system. I noticed in your edit that they went after the SA6 sites first and then went to the BigBird. I'm guessing that because of the position of the waypoints that the SEAD flight targets whatever is closer to them. Does that sound correct?

 

Yes, I did see the SA10 shoot down several of the SEAD missiles. I thought that only the Tor had the ability to do that. I will keep that in mind for future designs.

 

Point 5 I knew.

 

The 2nd seadzone mission you attached has more of an ideal way of multitasking AI via splitting them into multiple flights. The only change I would make is have a pair of 2 ships. One engages the SA-6s with a single "engage in zone" task like I set up in my sample. And then the other pair has "search and engage unit" for the S-300 and you make sure to use "group attack" or specify the weapon type and expend number to force the AI to launch multiple missiles on a single target.

I did try exactly what you stated but again the AI just turned and headed home. I still don't understand why your version works and mine doing almost the exact same thing (not the posted one) did not work. Is it possible that my system is causing the AI to behave differently? Just grasping at straws here but have you ever heard of that possibility?

 

By the way, thank you for the clear explanations.

Edited July 29, 2015 by 75th-VFS-Striker

[Exorcet]

Why does this give the AI more time to search? I'm not clear on what the logic is there. Also, I tried moving the action (search) waypoint inside the search zone and the AI just went home. When I left it outside the zone like you have it they did a perfect search and destroyed almost all the targets with one plane loss. Why is it that putting the waypoint inside the zone would cause this behavior?

 

The way tasks and waypoints work is that the AI will perform a given task when it reaches the waypoint associated with that task. If it gets to the next waypoint before starting the previous waypoint task, it will skip the task.

 

There is also a similar problem that can be seen with bombing runs. The AI needs a minimum space to perform certain maneuvers. Try to bomb something to close to a waypoint and the AI will turn around and approach the target again.

 

I wasn't able to look at your mission myself yet, but it would sound like this is the issue. Grimes is probably the best person when it comes to diagnosing mission issues, so we can wait for his reply to confirm this.

 

Because the Kh58U has a range of 44 (70km) miles and the SA10 only 25, my logic was that the AI pilot should use the Kh58 first to engage the 64H6E BigBird radar system. I noticed in your edit that they went after the SA6 sites first and then went to the BigBird. I'm guessing that because of the position of the waypoints that the SEAD flight targets whatever is closer to them. Does that sound correct?

The encyclopedia is iffy so I wouldn't really rely on the information contained within.

 

The AI doesn't have a good system for prioritizing threats, you would have to tell them what to prioritize. You can do this with multiple search and engage tasks. The highest priority one should be set to long range SAM, the second to mid range, etc.

[xaoslaad]

It also helps to take away weapons they do not need to perform the task, especially guns for SEAD. I armed F-16's with HARM's once and while testing watched them do gun passes on SAM's. Very special and didn't end well.

[VAF [136] Striker]

The way tasks and waypoints work is that the AI will perform a given task when it reaches the waypoint associated with that task. If it gets to the next waypoint before starting the previous waypoint task, it will skip the task.

 

This is great information so thank you for enlightening me on this!

 

The encyclopedia is iffy so I wouldn't really rely on the information contained within.

Yes, I've noticed in the documentation that there are some erroneous points but it is correct on this issue. The SA-10 or S-300PS uses the 5V55K missile which was used until 1982. I cross referenced it and it is correct in the specifications. It has a maximum effective range of 24 miles or 38 Km (29m & 47km by the book under ideal parameters). The later 5V55R has a longer range of 47 miles or 75 Km. If the S-300 in the sim were using the later 5V55R you would never be able to approach it with the Kh-58U. I've targeted S-300's within 25 miles so I know this to be correct. Also, the markings on the missile match the pictures I've seen. The "K" has a black nose cone and the "R" has a white or gray nose cone.

 

The AI doesn't have a good system for prioritizing threats, you would have to tell them what to prioritize. You can do this with multiple search and engage tasks. The highest priority one should be set to long range SAM, the second to mid range, etc.

How do I set priority or is that in the "Advanced Waypoint" windows?

Edited July 29, 2015 by 75th-VFS-Striker

[VAF [136] Striker]

It also helps to take away weapons they do not need to perform the task, especially guns for SEAD. I armed F-16's with HARM's once and while testing watched them do gun passes on SAM's. Very special and didn't end well.

Yeah, I've noticed stuff like that too. I only load what they need for the specific task. The Su-25T's are loaded with the ELINT pod, 2 x Kh-58U's and 4 x Kh-25MPU's each and nothing else. They do have R-73's for self defense but I haven't added enemy fighters yet.

[Grimes]

How do I set priority or is that in the "Advanced Waypoint" windows?

 

Priority is a setting associated with each enroute task and its found on all of the "search and engage" tasks. 0 is highest with bigger numbers having less priority. If multiple tasks are at the same priority then targets will be attacked in the order that they are detected. If a target at a higher priority goes undetected while the AI attack another target and then the higher priority target becomes detected, the AI will abort their attack and go after the higher priority target.

 

 

Why does this give the AI more time to search? I'm not clear on what the logic is there. Also, I tried moving the action (search) waypoint inside the search zone and the AI just went home. When I left it outside the zone like you have it they did a perfect search and destroyed almost all the targets with one plane loss. Why is it that putting the waypoint inside the zone would cause this behavior?

 

See this page for more details: http://wiki.hoggit.us/view/DCS_editor_AITasking

The gist of it is that enroute tasks are not instant, they take place throughout the route, and require AI to detect a given target in order to attack it. The landing waypoint effectively ends any enroute tasks thus the enroute task is completed almost immediately, possibly before the AI decides to attack a target. By making an enroute task take place over a number of waypoints, it gives the AI a chance to detect and attack targets.

 

Is it possible that my system is causing the AI to behave differently? Just grasping at straws here but have you ever heard of that possibility?

Not likely. A large part of it is simply setup. However using time acceleration can cause unexpected results, but if you use time acceleration at 2-5x speeds it should be ok.