Help defending against 120 ' and Radar missiles in general.

[Fallout]

Hi guys what seem to be just for me is trying to defeat radar missiles. Everyone I go defensive the missile just keeps tracking and my ass gets a sore pounding.

 

Any help?

 

Thanks

[Capn kamikaze]

Go defensive sooner, all you need to remember is that the sooner you notch or drag, the better your chances, as either of these will make the missile fly a longer intercept, and lose more energy.

 

If you can, head for the weeds, the missile/fighters radar will then be looking at the ground, and that will make it easier to get lost, a sky as a background is a bad thing, also a missile will lose more energy if you force it into low level flight than it will at high level.

 

If you only have SARH/IR missiles, I'm guessing you are flying a russian bird since you ask how to defeat 120's, then your best bet may be launch a R-27T/TE, and as soon as you think you've been fired on (use F10 to learn the range that 120's get sent, but don't rely on F10, just use it to learn it) then you know when you need to notch/drag, do it immediately, as just in the turn away from the threat the missile will cover a lot of ground, the longer you leave it the worse your situation, all the while the R-27 will be heading to the threat, now the R-27 hasn't got the best pk in the world, especially the T/TE, but it is stealthy, so it may just get that kill, or at the least put the attacker on the defensive.

 

If you have the R-77, then you're almost in the same position as the guy with the 120, you can fire and turn away if you want, but the R-77 has slightly less range than the 120, so the trick here is get the other guy to waste shots, ie drag his missile, get some seperation and then re-engage if yours misses.

 

Again, use F-10 to learn the range at which 120's will be coming to you (appx 20 miles)

 

Don't be afraid of using chaff, try not to use ECM when the missile is close, as the 120 will switch to HOJ..... at range where the 120 would be getting updates from the launcher then its a judgement call, I'd still say not, because of HOJ, but it could upset the lock of the launcher and temporarily stop the 120 getting updates, that could be useful during the turn to notch or dive, but after that when you're just running away, turn it off.

 

Use ECM up until the point where the 120 is launched, it could reduce the lock range of the threat long enough to make a difference, and let you get a missile off first, however the flipside of that is that when it is launched (at a shorter range) it will have more energy, and therefore more Pk, so if you do get a missile off first, turn and put the bandit on the azimuth limits of your radar, this means your closure rate will drop, and that will have the effect that a greater distance between you and them has.

 

Basically, turn, get low, run, and chaff, although if you get the first three right, chaff won't be necessary, the missile will just run out of energy all on its own, only use it if you really need to, don't waste it, and when you do use it, turn.

[OnlyforDCS]

Hi guys what seem to be just for me is trying to defeat radar missiles. Everyone I go defensive the missile just keeps tracking and my ass gets a sore pounding.

 

Any help?

 

Thanks

 

Are you familiar with the term 'notching' or to go into the 'notch'?

[Fallout]

Nope

[104th_Maverick]

You have to understand what "Lead Pursuit" is and how the missile uses this to intercept your aircraft.

 

Once you understand this, you then need to exploit this to your advantage and position your aircraft accordingly!

 

There are no magic moves that are going to save you 100% of the time, what is more important than any magic move is understanding the situation that you are in and how dangerous this is to you and your aircraft.

 

Being good a virtual fighter pilot is about making good decisions, you need to learn a lot first before you can be able to do this!

 

The more you fly... the better you'll get ;)

[OnlyforDCS]

It is a maneuver used to escape lock. Basically whenever you believe that an aircraft has a lock on you, and you know its approximate location, you can execute it to try and lose the lock.

 

The way it works is that you put your aircraft in the 'notch' where the enemy radar gets returns it filters as ground clutter and consequently drops you off its scope. Im not going to get into the theory as to how it works, you can google that yourself but basically what you want to do is get below the enemy aircraft and try to fly as perpendicular as possible to its vector.

 

This means putting the aircraft on your 3 or 9 o clock and keeping it there long enough for the enemy to lose lock while also keeping your aircraft in a look-down situation, or below the bandit. It wont work if the enemy is below you and looking up as obviously it won't be filtering for ground clutter.

 

After the enemy launches, this will usually only work on SARH missiles or in the case of active missile before the enemy missile's radar goes active so you have to have good awareness.

[winchesterdelta1]

One tactic is to notch the missile. But this requires some practice. To notch the missile you have to fly lower and slow than the target aircraft and put the missile or the launch platform on your 9 or 3 o'clock. This can be very dangerous because you will be flying slower than combat speed (Correct me if i'm wrong).

 

Another tactic requires preparation before hand. And i'm talking from F-15 perspective.

When you locked a target start cranking him and pick up speed. I fly around 600 /650 (but that is me and i don't know if that is totally correct. But it works in DCS). Cranking is putting your target in your radar gimbal limits. When 14/13 miles from the target turn into him fast. Line up and release your weapon and start cranking him again. Wait for your missile to go pitbull, slice back and run as fast as you can flying low. Without fuel tanks you can easily make the missile bleed to much speed. If he fires within 5 miles and you are already running from him keep running and pull some hard g's snaking left right at the moment you hear the missile warning. Don't bleed all your speed, you want to stay around 650 /700 to be sure to defeat it.

if you are within 8 miles head on and he fires a missile you better react quick. Slice back and find a mountain or hill to hide behind. In all these situations (not the notching one) speed is the key. If you do this at 400 mph or lower and you don't find a hill/mountain to hide behind you will be death for sure.

 

Also when you are running from your shooter and he is very close you better be sure he is not following you anymore. Because if you turn back in he is going to fire and the missile will hit you at the moment you lined up to him.

Also remember when running away is that it's really hard for the missile to catch up on you, so don't lose to much speed while running and when snaking try to pick up the speed again after some hard G's. This is because some people will fire a couple AMRAAM's just to get you defensive and lose speed. They know their missile will miss. But they also know there is a big chance you will try to defend for the missile to hard and bleed to much speed so he can creep up on you.

You can do this tactics also with two fuel tanks still on. But you need to be sure what you are doing.

 

Pointers

* SPEED is life.

* Cranking makes the missile bleed more speed. (Put locked target in gimbal limits of radar > At the edges of your radar left or right so you barely keep the lock)

* Always have a escape route if fighting close in against actives.

* Never turn back in if the guy is still following you or shooting at you (There is a way to do it without getting hit. But requires practice and timing and the use of max turn radius. And he has to be close)

 

DISCLAIMER: I'm not the all knowing type of person. So other people can maybe give you the exact numbers like speed / altitude / AOA / MAX turn radius. But in a good day and if i'm not to cocky or tired i can defeat missiles all day even within 6 miles.

 

*****When you see another F-15 cranking you. You are in for a quick death or a good fight. Because he is probably a experienced fighter and you have to be extra careful and don't push to hard. You can surprise those pilots by releasing your missile when you fly around 700/750 after you come out of the crank 12 to 11 miles from him. You missile will reach him faster than he expects. And your missile will pick up even more speed before pitbull, before he gets a missile warning.******

Edited August 27, 2015 by winchesterdelta1

[Pikey]

Once in your enemies WEZ you will ALWAYS be doing one of two things.

 

1. Outside MAR, pre-Pitbull. Defensive balanced BFM where you defeat the missile kinematically by manoevring in all planes and increasing his Fpole to force any opposing missiles to effectively "tire". You will be cranking, your speed and heading will be adjusted by your offensive weapon release status.

2. Post Pitbull/inside MAR. Pure defensive which can include pumping, running cold, hiding in terrain and notching. usually involves a trip down low very quickly.

 

Nearly all missile defeats you will be making without knowing it, certainly at the closer ranges (smoke trails can be seen at longer ranges and cranking is somewhat visual). I'll go out on a limb but I believe PvP is mostly won by the better defensive BFM.

 

Inside of 10 miles and most of this crap gioes out the window because you are well inside no escape and the slammers energy peak.

[Capn kamikaze]

winchester, you don't need to fly slower in the notch, you just have to keep the bandit/missile on the 9/3 oclock line, by notching you've already reduced your speed toward them to zero, and eliminated the difference in dopler shift between you and ground clutter, a reduction in speed may help if you're having trouble keeping them on that line, but it shouldn't be an issue.

[Fallout]

Any tips for the Flanker?

[Frostie]

Any tips for the Flanker?

 

Eject??

 

This topic has been done to death, just do a simple search and you'll find hundreds of threads saying the same thing.

 

Flankers have been facing F-15s here for well over 10 years, the amount of discussion to be found is a potential gold mine for any new guy, if only they'd just search.

[TAW_Blaze]

Here we go again, everyone's nose stuck in the details. :)

 

Don't even bother going into tactics or any system specifics before you have an understanding how relative energy and other flight parameters define any given fight. You could start by figuring out how speed and altitude affect it, then add more parameters, like relative positions and flight patterns before/at/after launch etc.

 

Being a good fighter pilot is no magic, you need to have a high level of understanding about everything that matters. You can learn as many tricks as you want but as long as you don't understand why and how they work it's all useless.

[ekg]

A defensive technique I use but don't know what is called is to fly at about 30 degrees off the missile path. That is if the attacker is at my 12'o clock and I get a warning he fired I bank left or right 30 degrees. I also release chaff. This usually works for me but I haven't tried against a 120. The advantage of this is that you can keep lock while being defensive.

 

I usually don't make adjustments to my speed when I do this. Also I suppose flying up might help as well but I don't really do that. If you're level with your opponent and you go up then the missile has to convert kinetic energy to potential energy to meet your new height.

[EagleFox]

A defensive technique I use but don't know what is called is to fly at about 30 degrees off the missile path. That is if the attacker is at my 12'o clock and I get a warning he fired I bank left or right 30 degrees. I also release chaff. This usually works for me but I haven't tried against a 120. The advantage of this is that you can keep lock while being defensive.

 

I usually don't make adjustments to my speed when I do this. Also I suppose flying up might help as well but I don't really do that. If you're level with your opponent and you go up then the missile has to convert kinetic energy to potential energy to meet your new height.

 

Whatever you do don't listen this guy all here what he wrote is dead sentece. Climbing up? Dude you are wasting your energy more then missile.

[TAW_Blaze]

Whatever you do don't listen this guy all here what he wrote is dead sentece. Climbing up? Dude you are wasting your energy more then missile.

 

There are some cases where climbing can be more beneficial than diving or keeping altitude. The point is that we're back to step 1 again, because he still doesn't have a clue why he's supposed to do this or that. No matter how many friggin tricks you got, if you don't know when and why to use them they'll usually kill you instead of helping.

 

Once you figure out what matters in a fight you start thinking in terms of the information you have in front of you instead of a bag of tricks to pick from. With enough experience you can analyze the situation in a short amount of time and come up with a solution. Most of the maneuvers you'll use will make a lot more sense and you'll understand when and how to do what.

 

It's like you don't start to learn how to ride a bike by doing a backflip..

[Svend_Dellepude]

It's like you don't start to learn how to ride a bike by doing a backflip..

 

You can never know.. :)

[winchesterdelta1]

We can give him these tricks and than he can figure out why, when and how it works. It is still a game so you can try this 1000 of times and learn from that. If riding a bike was a video game you could do back flips 1000 of times and learn to ride the bike in game because there is no harm if you fail. And you will have loads of fun doing it.

How many people on here study'd energy management, physics, basic and advanced BFM and how radars work in detail before they started up this game???

No we read something, we ask something we try it out. If it doesn't work we read something and ask something again. That is the fun of this. You don't need to do it the proper way from the beginning. But doing it the real/correct way certainly will make you learn it better. But you will require way more than only the DCS manual. And all that info is not readily available in a handy package with a super experienced instructor like for real fighter pilots. So i don't see any harm in this. Especially for people that just like fighter jets and try this game but don't have a clue what is important and what is not. They will learn by trial and error and doing stupid stuff. Or am i sounding totally retarded now?

 

And i know for sure if i would know these tricks before hand i would have learned it way faster because than you have a general idea what to do and what to look for.

Edited August 27, 2015 by winchesterdelta1

[plaiskool]

BASIC kinematic avoidance, no tactical considerations:

 

You need to imagine Me with a 2 meters stick aiming your chest going towards you at walk speed.

 

How do you avoid me touching you with the stick?....

 

You change direction (notch/pump/abort) at a distance > of the length of the stick and at a speed equal or greater than me.

 

 

This stick length, or distance, is called MAR (minimum abort range) if you stay above your are safe, if you go below you will need hard maneuvering to avoid and survive.

 

As the 104's buds said, With time you will start to understand how the geometry works, you will try different distances and different speed until it work, there is no secret...you need to practice.

 

FYI : DCS AIM120C MAR @ block [2] for mach 0.9/0.9 fighter is : 14Nm rounded up ish

 

So: @ 14Nm of bandit, if you go afterburner, even buster do a Level 180° turn at mach 0.9 or more you will defeat any aim 120c coming from that mach 0.9 block [2] bandit shooting at you Long/medium...

 

Now Mar is variable for each block of altitude, speed of bandit, your speed, your payload(manouvrability ex: 3 tanks), Your way to go cold, (pump/abort buster/gate?) if you are already in the crank, and most off all the missile against you.

Edited August 27, 2015 by plaiskool

[Mike5560]

Download Tacview and watch your flights post-mission. It provides all the data and then some of what real flying militaries use as a debriefing tool; which is where 90% of the learning happens.

 

Watch what the enemy aircraft do when you launch missiles at them....especially with their difficulty at excellent....take away their missiles in the editor if you have to force a situation.

 

Notice at what point the missiles run out of propellant and how much turning them reduces their speed.

[TAW_Blaze]

We can give him these tricks and than he can figure out why, when and how it works. It is still a game so you can try this 1000 of times and learn from that. If riding a bike was a video game you could do back flips 1000 of times and learn to ride the bike in game because there is no harm if you fail. And you will have loads of fun doing it.

How many people on here study'd energy management, physics, basic and advanced BFM and how radars work in detail before they started up this game???

No we read something, we ask something we try it out. If it doesn't work we read something and ask something again. That is the fun of this. You don't need to do it the proper way from the beginning. But doing it the real/correct way certainly will make you learn it better. But you will require way more than only the DCS manual. And all that info is not readily available in a handy package with a super experienced instructor like for real fighter pilots. So i don't see any harm in this. Especially for people that just like fighter jets and try this game but don't have a clue what is important and what is not. They will learn by trial and error and doing stupid stuff. Or am i sounding totally retarded now?

 

And i know for sure if i would know these tricks before hand i would have learned it way faster because than you have a general idea what to do and what to look for.

 

There's nothing wrong with trying to help people. But they might aswell start the correct way. You don't need a masters in physics to understand how things work in air combat. In BVR, you need have a checklist of information to consider before/during/after a fight. Most of these things are pretty straight forward but you either figure it out yourself or someone teaches it to you. Once you know what to look for it's a hell of a lot easier.

[OnlyforDCS]

Blaze maybe you could point out a few links for our OP to help him out with the basics, and I agree that learning and thoroughly understanding a subject is better than digging through a 'bag of tricks'.

[*Rage*]

Any tips for the Flanker?

 

I can give you a few simple tips to start with.

 

- Stay high and use radar to scan. staying low degrades your ability to scan the airspace and your situational awareness (SA).

 

- Identify a bandit to engage. Go 1v1 only to start with in a Flanker. especially against F15s. Keep him defensive by launching at just under Rmax, 80% of Rmax, then at ~20km. Do this while aggressively cranking. If he is carrying active missiles do not get within 15km at low altitude. Do not get within 20km at medium alt, 25km at high altitude as a rough guide.

 

- Realise that you will expend all your missiles just to stay alive and maintain 'clean' airspace around you. You dont have the luxury of active missiles. You will most likely not get the kill but thats ok. Your aim is to stay alive and control the airspace.

 

- Assume that you have a 120 inbound from any F15 within 35km. They will launch silently in TWS. Crank, Fpole, evade. Also assume that if you see an F15 slice back at close range than you have have a high probability kill (pK) missile on its way to you.

 

- Always replay the track and study the tacview. I really cant overstate how much of a valuable resource this is. Study the ranges the missiles are fired it, the way they bleed energy, the tactics the bandits use. Do it after the flight so you still remember the context of the engagement. See how your SA could have been improved.

[TAW_Blaze]

Blaze maybe you could point out a few links for our OP to help him out with the basics, and I agree that learning and thoroughly understanding a subject is better than digging through a 'bag of tricks'.

 

Search -> Advanced Search -> Titles only, search for BVR

 

Plenty of threads there, just like Frostie said. :)

[FLANKERATOR]

As a few pointed out here, my advice is to start with the white belt stuff such as getting a good grasp of how your radar and RWR displays information and how to read it and have an accurate picture of where you are in relation to surrounding threats or friendlies.

 

Tacview is a must download that you have to watch everytime post flight to understand what happened and train your mind to draw accurate pictures in real time from inside your cockpit.

 

Once you get good at staying out of trouble by detecting and defeating threats early, then you can move to more advanced training like offensive BVR where you can start firing back and getting incrementely closer to the NEZ.

 

Once you feel comfortable in 'dancing with fire' from outside the NEZ, you can start the black belt stuff such as getting into the NEZ, using terrain, using your wingmen to bait the enemy and so on...

[Nerd1000]

;2459866']You have to understand what "Lead Pursuit" is and how the missile uses this to intercept your aircraft.

 

To explain this,

 

Most missiles home in on you using a method known as 'proportional navigation'. In essence, the missile is trying to lead your plane so that it is on a collision course, much like how you pull lead when using guns on a turning plane.

 

At very low altitude this means that a steep dive will sometimes make incoming missiles crash into the ground- The missile doesn't know the ground is there and attempts to lead you, except the point where it would intercept your diving flight path is somewhere below ground level.

 

It also means that if you zig zag back and forth the missile will waste lots of airspeed trying to pull lead on you again and again- hopefully so low that it won't be able to turn sufficiently tightly to hit you. This approach works against missiles coming in from long range, but it won't help at closer ranges because you won't be able to bleed enough of the missile's speed before it reaches you. A typical approach would be to zig zag back and forth within the gimbal limits of your radar. That way your radar beam is still illuminating your enemy for the missiles you've presumably launched at him.