Russian missiles - usage, bug, problems, advantages

[Ragnarok]

ERs in hotfix 3 are much more potent.

 

is still sensitive to 3-9 + chaff on the background of sky. AIM-120/R77 have AllSeeing Eye... chaff + 3-9 on the background of clutter no function.

[*Rage*]

Yeah it could be better. After another flight im really concerned how easy it is to spoof 73s and ETs with flares.

[Frostie]

Within certain parameters your own ir missiles go for your own flares.

[blkspade]

is still sensitive to 3-9 + chaff on the background of sky. AIM-120/R77 have AllSeeing Eye... chaff + 3-9 on the background of clutter no function.

 

I'd venture to guess chaff should still have some effect. Military planes have had to deal with things that shoot up at them literally forever. In fact I'm pretty sure it was initially introduced vs entirely look up scenarios. I'd almost expect chaff to be more likely lost in ground clutter than against the sky. That said from what I can tell both SARH and ARH missiles in DCS have the ability/chance to reacquire, but ARH are better. ARH can be notched, but if you fall out of the notch while it still has energy to the intercept, it will intercept. Marry that with the fact if it doesn't bite on chaff, its still trying to go to where it last saw you were heading.

[Ragnarok]

I agree absolutely

[domini99]

I like the new R27ER

I've actually killed quite a few targets with it after the update.

Before they would already stop tracking after a single chaff

 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn XT1068 met Tapatalk

[DarkFire]

Has anyone noticed any changes to the proximity fuzing and blast radius for the R-27ER? It may be my imagination but it feels like the fuzing radius of the ER has increased but the effective blast radius has decreased slightly.

[Ragnarok]

Has anyone noticed any changes to the proximity fuzing and blast radius for the R-27ER? It may be my imagination but it feels like the fuzing radius of the ER has increased but the effective blast radius has decreased slightly.

 

KillDistance = 11.0[m]

[DarkFire]

KillDistance = 11.0[m]

 

OK. A follow-on question then: does anyone know how damage application is modelled, i.e. is it applied on a sliding scale v distance? On a per-system basis? Surely it can't be as simple as:

 

Target distance = 10.99 m --> zero damage.

Target distance = 11.00 m --> total destruction of target.

 

Or is warhead fragmentation modelled? I've always been under the impression that it isn't, or does that only apply to A-2-G weapons?

[Ragnarok]

look warheads.lua

[GGTharos]

Blast model only, no fragmentation.

 

Blast force is inversely proportional to the cube of the distance IIRC.

 

Or is warhead fragmentation modelled?

[DarkFire]

Blast model only, no fragmentation.

 

Blast force is inversely proportional to the cube of the distance IIRC.

 

Ah OK, that's what I thought. Nice to see a spherical blast modelled reasonably realistically.

[JunMcKill]

All russian SARH and ARH misiles are visibles for the F-15 TEWS and russian Beryosa from the launch time, online documentation says that american TEWS can detect the telemetry sent by RF from the aircraft to the missile and knows that a missile was launched (which I sincerily doubt), every interview I watched in youtube and pilots contradicts that, but the guys of ED will defend their model against all odds dont waste your time trying to argue with them.

[Svend_Dellepude]

I don't think that youtube has an answer to everything. Besides this is an area where things are very classified.

[apocom]

AFAIK the fire control radar activates another radar on missle launch that emits a very narrow radar beam to guide the missle. This second radar is detected by the electronic warning system.

[red_coreSix]

AFAIK the fire control radar activates another radar on missle launch that emits a very narrow radar beam to guide the missle. This second radar is detected by the electronic warning system.

 

No, not really. I know that the Patriot has additional modules installed on its fire control radar that handle the data link to the missile but the Su-27 has only one radar.

AFAIK the R-27ER has a 2-stage guidance with the first being corrections via radio and the second being SAHR.

[apocom]

Hi, I've had the question by myself and looked it up. Different sources state that a second radar (illuminator) is used.

 

One radar has the problem that the radar beam can never be 100% on your target.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-active_radar_homing section continuous-wave radar

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Radar-AAMs.html original source

 

https://archive.org/stream/studyofworldsnav00sara/studyofworldsnav00sara_djvu.txt

this is about surface to air missles

 

Here is a picture from a frigate with the radar (black) and illuminator (grey)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/F218_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Radarantenne.jpg

 

Conclusion:

I don't know if the SU27 radar has an illuminator. I don't have the handbook. But everything else that I can find about the topic states that SARH are guided by a 2nd radar. And its for me the most logical reason, why the radar warner warns you.

[red_coreSix]

SAHR are not guided by anything in that they guide themselves of the radar reflection from the target that the fighters radar paints. There is no second radar in the flanker.

[blkspade]

Hi, I've had the question by myself and looked it up. Different sources state that a second radar (illuminator) is used.

 

One radar has the problem that the radar beam can never be 100% on your target.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-active_radar_homing section continuous-wave radar

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Radar-AAMs.html original source

 

https://archive.org/stream/studyofworldsnav00sara/studyofworldsnav00sara_djvu.txt

this is about surface to air missles

 

Here is a picture from a frigate with the radar (black) and illuminator (grey)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/F218_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Radarantenne.jpg

 

Conclusion:

I don't know if the SU27 radar has an illuminator. I don't have the handbook. But everything else that I can find about the topic states that SARH are guided by a 2nd radar. And its for me the most logical reason, why the radar warner warns you.

 

Actually speaking toward that topic, something that is apparently modeled with the ground radar is being spiked when you aren't the target. Unless it just a random bug, you'll occasionally get a lock warning from friendly SAMs when there is an enemy around from what I'd imagine is a by product of being in the "beam". By that logic, fighters in close formation should likely get the same spike warning from other aircraft, when only one of them is locked.

[Ragnarok]

By that logic, fighters in close formation should likely get the same spike warning from other aircraft, when only one of them is locked.

We have confirmation from the combat pilot that this is precisely what is happening. Also, close formation as a large target area (RCS).

[blkspade]

We have confirmation from the combat pilot that this is precisely what is happening. Also, close formation as a large target area (RCS).

 

Now if only that happened in DCS... Currently one can know with absolute certainty when a bandit is blind on them while busy spiking a buddy. Of course this is only a problem for fighters that have to STT to engage.

[pr1malr8ge]

We have confirmation from the combat pilot that this is precisely what is happening. Also, close formation as a large target area (RCS).

 

Yes close formation should be a larger RCS, but at the same time making it hard if not impossible to distinguish multiple contacts. I.e. it looks just like one contact.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm just thinking.. That if flying in close formation that upon being launched on that if both[multiple what ever] break opposite directions and chaff at the same. The missile should go for the chaff since it should be presenting a much larger RCS then the two planes after the break?

[DarkFire]

Yes close formation should be a larger RCS, but at the same time making it hard if not impossible to distinguish multiple contacts. I.e. it looks just like one contact.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm just thinking.. That if flying in close formation that upon being launched on that if both[multiple what ever] break opposite directions and chaff at the same. The missile should go for the chaff since it should be presenting a much larger RCS then the two planes after the break?

 

I can imagine that happening, especially if the launch aircraft has a pulse-doppler radar system. If the two targeted aircraft break perpendicular to the illuminator then the illuminator will see ΔV » 0 for both aircraft as they enter the notch but will see an albeit slow but +v for the chaff cloud, thus making the chaff cloud the only visible target.

 

I suppose that if the illuminating radar has good CM rejection then it might refuse to lock on the chaff, at which point it will have no viable targets and any launched SARH missile would miss.

 

Interesting idea...

[Ragnarok]

Yes close formation should be a larger RCS, but at the same time making it hard if not impossible to distinguish multiple contacts. I.e. it looks just like one contact.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm just thinking.. That if flying in close formation that upon being launched on that if both[multiple what ever] break opposite directions and chaff at the same. The missile should go for the chaff since it should be presenting a much larger RCS then the two planes after the break?

 

Regardless, it all depends on how to modify the amplitude modulation of any reflections. SARH always tends to follow a straight line signaling without modulation if he has a choice.

[JunMcKill]

In fact the SARH missile can be directed using a CGI radar source, not all the radar modes of the MIG-29S are modeled in DCS, like the encounter mode, and I quote:

 

"When the system is under direct GCI control via datalink, a 6 bar elevation raster scan is used. This scan covers a sector of 40° in azimuth at ranges up to 30km, 30° at ranges of 30-55 km, and 20° above 55km within the scan limits given above. The distance to target and other useful information is supplied by GCI command, and the direction of the scan is automatically cued by CGI command towards the desired target. "

 

http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM%20PICTURES%20&%20DOCS/Overscan's%20guide%20to%20Russian%20Military%20Avionics.htm