Russian missiles - usage, bug, problems, advantages

[Nerd1000]

Thanks for the tip! :pilotfly: :thumbup:

 

 

IIRC the R3R has a range of only 7km so if you let an enemy get that close to you without you noticing you've already done a fatal mistake and are dead anyway by the hands of any Russian plane flown by at least moderately capable pilot. That range is nearly in 73 launch range. Much closer and it's a guns dogfight where you'll get taken down by anything from 109 to a MiG-15.

 

Whate are you flying? American or Russian? Are you trying to stick to the ground or rule the sky from above?

 

I'm flying the MiG-21 that launched the R3R :P

 

R3Rs can be launched from 10km against a target that is approaching at high speed. Against slow targets like A-10s I delay launch to 7km head-on. Rear aspect shots are only good to 2km or so against a fast jet, and that's assuming you are traveling faster than the target at launch. It would be rare for me to engage from behind with a R3R though- I'd typically launch a R-60M against a opponent that is pointing his tail at me, as they have better range and are more maneuverable.

 

The R3R is obviously a very limited weapon because of that short range, but it does have some abilities that are a little silly for such a low tech missile. In my experience its very rare for them to miss, though I expect that is partly because most launches have the element of surprise on their side.

[=4c=Nikola]

Not really, the f-15 pilot will probably recognize you fired from a far position and will know the ER is coming and isn't a significant threat from that range.

 

Still, from the same distance, ER is way more dangerous than R.

 

There is no point loading Rs unless you want to troll other players. :D

[domini99]

Not really, the f-15 pilot will probably recognize you fired from a far position and will know the ER is coming and isn't a significant threat from that range.

What if I use an ET instead of an ER?

Most people for some reason don't see it comming.

Still, from the same distance, ER is way more dangerous than R.

 

There is no point loading Rs unless you want to troll other players. :D

Wasn't the R more manoeuvrable than the ER?

[Nerd1000]

What if I use an ET instead of an ER?

Most people for some reason don't see it comming.

 

Wasn't the R more manoeuvrable than the ER?

 

For a given distance, the ER will by flying faster and thus have more ability to maneuver than the R.

 

The ET is often not spotted because it is IR homing and thus gives no launch warning. The smoke trail is huge, but it is still easy to miss in the heat of combat, especially if the missile is in one of your blind-spots. This is kind of irrelevant in BVR because the ET's seeker cannot lock on at normal BVR ranges.

[DarkFire]

Also bare in mind that the R-27ET has a launch-on-bearing mode in which it will just fly along and lock anything that comes within it's 15 degree seeker cone. Obviously this is VERY dangerous in an environment where friendly aircraft are mixed up with bandits, but it does theoretically provide a long range silent threat capability.

 

As I see it the incredible maximum speed and 'long' range of the R-27E series are their primary advantage. It's a perfect missile for F-polling the enemy, though you have to be very brave to try this even at medium to high altitude.

[blkspade]

Not really, the f-15 pilot will probably recognize you fired from a far position and will know the ER is coming and isn't a significant threat from that range.

 

Pretty much this. If I have a 29 on my TEWS, and confirmation of range on my radar, I giggle at your early shot. "He launched at 18nm, aww thats cute." Unless we're both crazy high, ETs are largely a non factor yet, I'll pop a few flares anyway.

 

For the most part everybody's missile are equally broken. When they get equally fixed, it may mean not having to reach the merge (1v1). I kind of envision this only actually being good for the eagle driver.

[*Rage*]

Pretty much this. If I have a 29 on my TEWS, and confirmation of range on my radar, I giggle at your early shot. "He launched at 18nm, aww thats cute." Unless we're both crazy high, ETs are largely a non factor yet, I'll pop a few flares anyway.

 

For the most part everybody's missile are equally broken. When they get equally fixed, it may mean not having to reach the merge (1v1). I kind of envision this only actually being good for the eagle driver.

 

If they fix the guidance/CM/ground clutter issues this benefits the SARH missiles more since they are more broken in those aspects, and by extension the Ru birds.

[blkspade]

If they fix the guidance/CM/ground clutter issues this benefits the SARH missiles more since they are more broken in those aspects, and by extension the Ru birds.

 

All that, and my ability to cheapshot, with the probability that it will actually be in the ballpark to require your attention.

[karambiatos]

"He launched at 18nm, aww thats cute." Unless we're both crazy high, ETs are

Anyone that does that doesn't expect a hit, they just want to make you maneuver.

[blkspade]

Anyone that does that doesn't expect a hit, they just want to make you maneuver.

 

And I do, for the kill...

[*Rage*]

All that, and my ability to cheapshot, with the probability that it will actually be in the ballpark to require your attention.

 

Eh?

[karambiatos]

And I do, for the kill...

Be more hoiler than thou please

[TAW_Blaze]

Eh?

 

Slammer's supposed to guide on last known intercept point if the bug/lock is lost at any point. SUPPOSED TO. :)

 

Meanwhile in DCS your slammer flies into the ground from 7 miles because you lost bug due to another nonexistant feature called TWS radar memory. Funny, ain't it?

[blkspade]

Be more hoiler than thou please

 

While I mostly kid, unless the flanker is in an advantageous position (speed and alt), which most of the time they aren't, my only required maneuver put me in weapons parameters.

[*Rage*]

All that, and my ability to cheapshot, with the probability that it will actually be in the ballpark to require your attention.

 

Slammer's supposed to guide on last known intercept point if the bug/lock is lost at any point. SUPPOSED TO. :)

 

Meanwhile in DCS your slammer flies into the ground from 7 miles because you lost bug due to another nonexistant feature called TWS radar memory. Funny, ain't it?

 

If and when they make those missile fixes a cheapshot will not be possible against a competent Flanker driver. The only reason it sorta half works now is because you can negate any first launch/speeed/alt advantage a flanker driver has by jinkng and chaffing and by being low (but still hot). Right now those launches im talking about have the energy to intercept but will guide no where.

 

IF they start guiding then then the F15 driver has something to think about (and evade). Chaffing and jinking wont do the trick anymore. And if he's not careful he'll be splashed long before he has a chance at a cheapshot.

 

Why else do 4 out 5 MP F15 drivers fly in the weeds currently? To easily avoid ER/ETs and spam a cheapshot. and it often works.

 

Credit to Karambiatos for coining the term the 'Aim120 singularity'. :)The point at which every thread becomes about the amraam. Even in the Su27 subforum. In a thread about russian missiles and tactics.

[TAW_Blaze]

Why else do 4 out 5 MP F15 drivers fly in the weeds currently? To easily avoid ER/ETs and spam a cheapshot. and it often works.

 

Because they are stupid.

 

If and when they make those missile fixes a cheapshot will not be possible against a competent Flanker driver. The only reason it sorta half works now is because you can negate any first launch/speeed/alt advantage a flanker driver has by jinkng and chaffing and by being low (but still hot). Right now those launches im talking about have the energy to intercept but will guide no where.

 

I'm not talking about cheapshots. Shots that are practically active off the rail are very far from cheapshot. Just because you got the faster missile and slightly longer legs it doesn't mean I have to fly in the dirt to beat it. Stop over glorifying the crowd, they have no clue about anything and they'll do the first thing that seems to work for eternity.

 

IF they start guiding then then the F15 driver has something to think about (and evade). Chaffing and jinking wont do the trick anymore. And if he's not careful he'll be splashed long before he has a chance at a cheapshot.

 

I can get close enough to take shots that will force you to throw your missile away without risking certain death. Period. Whether your ER guides or not.

 

About this slammer singularity of yours, it's laughable. You come around complaining how shit your ER is, and then we add our view to make perspective. Then guess what, now everything is about the slammer. About time we agree that each side has it's own problems and ****ing move on. I very rarely come here to complain about the state of the sim but seeing this is just ludicrous. Back to the "I have it harder than the others" state of mind..

[Frostie]

Let's just agree that if they ever fix the missile issues it will benefit both sides.

 

Cheap shots worked a treat for all ARH missiles in FC1 including R-77, there was no need for memory it was all done by a greatly increased cone of the seeker and a virtual instant lock on anything in that cone, there was no basket, as soon as it was free it would activate its seeker and lock onto anything it saw within a near 180 degree field for the rest of its flight duration, Maddog was the order of the day for all self supporting missiles including the R-27ET. ERs had long legs and killed aircraft from 50+km away. The balance of power at altitude in BVR was much closer then than what it is now.

 

Thankfully ED fixed that maddog nonsense and FC2 became the pinnacle of the series for me as far as BVR is concerned. It had its nuances but its the closest we've been to being able to successfully apply good BVR tactics and combat, which is really all we want to do.

[TAW_Blaze]

Let's just agree that if they ever fix the missile issues it will benefit both sides.

 

Cheap shots worked a treat for all ARH missiles in FC1 including R-77, there was no need for memory it was all done by a greatly increased cone of the seeker and a virtual instant lock on anything in that cone, there was no basket, as soon as it was free it would activate its seeker and lock onto anything it saw within a near 180 degree field for the rest of its flight duration, Maddog was the order of the day for all self supporting missiles including the R-27ET. ERs had long legs and killed aircraft from 50+km away. The balance of power at altitude in BVR was much closer then than what it is now.

 

Thankfully ED fixed that maddog nonsense and FC2 became the pinnacle of the series for me as far as BVR is concerned. It had its nuances but its the closest we've been to being able to successfully apply good BVR tactics and combat, which is really all we want to do.

 

I'll agree to that. If the missiles grow some better legs once again I suspect flying high will be a lot more common and we'll have far longer range engagements all the time. Atm low flying is glorified due to the ranges we have.

 

Another thing they'll have to do is fix ECM, if you add 30nm+ fights into the pool the current jamming will turn the game into a HoJ shooter. I'm not an expert of the matter but 80/90s technology fighter SPJ jamming search radars is a joke.

[*Rage*]

Because they are stupid.

No. They do what works for them because the game mechanics allow it.

 

I'm not talking about cheapshots. Shots that are practically active off the rail are very far from cheapshot. Just because you got the faster missile and slightly longer legs it doesn't mean I have to fly in the dirt to beat it. Stop over glorifying the crowd, they have no clue about anything and they'll do the first thing that seems to work for eternity.

I was responding to spade about cheapshots.

 

 

I can get close enough to take shots that will force you to throw your missile away without risking certain death. Period. Whether your ER guides or not.

 

Can you? Perhaps not certain death but I would call it an unacceptable level of risk. The situation now I would call low risk. Anyway, what parameters are you talking about? If you know how ED are gonna change the missiles then feel free to share. Then we can start about quantifying that statement :)

 

About this slammer singularity of yours, it's laughable. You come around complaining how shit your ER is, and then we add our view to make perspective. Then guess what, now everything is about the slammer. About time we agree that each side has it's own problems and ****ing move on. I very rarely come here to complain about the state of the sim but seeing this is just ludicrous. Back to the "I have it harder than the others" state of mind..

 

Whats funny about it? The thread title says it all. It wouldnt be acceptable to pollute the F15 PFM thread with issues about the Su27 flight model. Why is it acceptable here? I agree with you both sides have issues but can't topics remain on topic? I would argue that if someone feels the need to complain about Slammers in a russian missile thread then its them with the victim mentality.

 

I have alot of respect for you guys. You're the best F15 pilots by a country mile and you do a huge amount for the community. I just cant help but respond:)

[TAW_Blaze]

No. They do what works for them because the game mechanics allow it.

 

They do it because they are totally incompetent and have no chance or will to get a better understanding of air combat. But you can't define how things should work based on the clueless people's actions. It's like balancing a game based on the input of the bottom 10% players..

 

Just because it works on the server it doesn't prove the quality of the equipment.

 

Can you? Perhaps not certain death but I would call it an unacceptable level of risk. The situation now I would call low risk. Anyway, what parameters are you talking about? If you know how ED are gonna change the missiles then feel free to share. Then we can start about quantifying that statement

 

Of course I can. I meant current situation. But even if they fix things you won't have so much of a leg up on me to deny me a good shot, not from an even fight anyway. That would require the ER to have 1,5x range of the slammer or higher, not happening most likely. :)

 

90% of what you do in the sim is an unacceptable level of risk so that's kind of a moot point. If you're trying to kill someone you'll always be on the edge. Unless he's doing something extra stupid.

 

Whats funny about it? The thread title says it all. It wouldnt be acceptable to pollute the F15 PFM thread with issues about the Su27 flight model. Why is it acceptable here? I agree with you both sides have issues but can't topics remain on topic? I would argue that if someone feels the need to complain about Slammers in a russian missile thread then its them with the victim mentality.

 

Sorry, my bad. I keep getting flashbacks of the missile discussion thread. :)

 

I have alot of respect for you guys.

 

So do I.

[*Rage*]

Of course I can. I meant current situation. But even if they fix things you won't have so much of a leg up on me to deny me a good shot' date=' not from an even fight anyway. That would require the ER to have 1,5x range of the slammer or higher, not happening most likely. [/quote'].

 

If thats the case then resistance is futile. We must have Su27SM+ to stand a chance :)

[ArkRoyal]

.

 

If thats the case then resistance is futile. We must have Su27SM+ to stand a chance :)

 

You would still be at a significant kinematic disadvantage. The R-77 is bested handily by the 120C.

 

Flankers are inferior to Eagles in any comparable context. If you want the latest Su-27, then the Eagle drivers would be justified in wanting the best F-15 with the Best missiles. So AIM-120D and APG63 V3. Back to square one.

 

Plus, even if we date DCS by missiles in game, the Americans should be sporting AIM-9X's and data links. So you'd lose your close in advantage, and still be out missiled in BVR.

 

To me, it seems silly to balance a game by including aircraft that are not date/production #s comparable, since by doing so you erase the context of the aircraft.

[*Rage*]

You would still be at a significant kinematic disadvantage. The R-77 is bested handily by the 120C.

 

Flankers are inferior to Eagles in any comparable context. If you want the latest Su-27, then the Eagle drivers would be justified in wanting the best F-15 with the Best missiles. So AIM-120D and APG63 V3. Back to square one.

 

Plus, even if we date DCS by missiles in game, the Americans should be sporting AIM-9X's and data links. So you'd lose your close in advantage, and still be out missiled in BVR.

 

To me, it seems silly to balance a game by including aircraft that are not date/production #s comparable, since by doing so you erase the context of the aircraft.

 

Oh dear. The bestest F15 with the bestest missiles? Well then we must all fly F15s. :thumbup:

[TAW_Blaze]

.

 

If thats the case then resistance is futile. We must have Su27SM+ to stand a chance :)

 

You missed the point :) ARH vs SARH if you have more or less the same range the ARH side will always have a huge upper hand. I can get around to ranges where my slammer will kill you if you keep on pushing while your ER is still going to miss me because I have the luxury to do whatever I want once the slammer's gone pitbull.

 

But that's assuming an equal or advantageous fight for me. Nobody said you gotta hand me an equal or better fight. Albeit if you don't run me down with a huge advantage I'll just out climb you anyway.

[Avimimus]

I'm feeling rather confused by this discussion:

 

The R-27ET has the same motor and controls surfaces as the R-27ER. So it should give off the same amount of smoke and have a similar flight performance (albeit slightly different due to the different seeker head).

 

The R-27ET has the same seeker as the R-73... so barring minor differences it should have the same acquisition range and resistance to flares as the R-73...

 

Right?