Russian missiles - usage, bug, problems, advantages

[*Rage*]

You missed the point :) ARH vs SARH if you have more or less the same range the ARH side will always have a huge upper hand. I can get around to ranges where my slammer will kill you if you keep on pushing while your ER is still going to miss me because I have the luxury to do whatever I want once the slammer's gone pitbull.

 

But that's assuming an equal or advantageous fight for me. Nobody said you gotta hand me an equal or better fight. Albeit if you don't run me down with a huge advantage I'll just out climb you anyway.

 

The speed and range advantage of the ER over the 120 increases with altitude. Substantially so. If youre high and fast enough and manuever correctly you can use this to at least improve on the SARH/ARH disadvantage. In my experience I can achieve a kill or an extend and still kinetically defeat the 120 coming at me. This becomes a possibility with reliable tracking.

 

That was the point I was trying to make 5 pages back. Sadly the threads gone to s**t since then.

Edited September 20, 2015 by ///Rage

[*Rage*]

I'm feeling rather confused by this discussion:

 

The R-27ET has the same motor and controls surfaces as the R-27ER. So it should give off the same amount of smoke and have a similar flight performance (albeit slightly different due to the different seeker head).

 

The R-27ET has the same seeker as the R-73... so barring minor differences it should have the same acquisition range and resistance to flares as the R-73...

 

Right?

 

Im interested in this too...

[Zurich]

Thanks for all the replies, guys!

 

Tested the TWS2 with a friend, it gives lock and launch warnings, sadly. Should it be like that (F-15 doesn't iirc)? If not, will it get fixed?

 

 

I'd like to know the answer to this as well. I know the radar systems of the F15 compared to the Mig29 are vastly different, but is there any documentation to support that the TWS mode of the Mig29 operates differently than the TWS of the F15?

 

I mean in relation to the F15 TWS mode being able to lock jamming targets, no launch warning, compared to the Mig 29 which cannot lock targets in TWS with jammers present (Only until burn through range) and gives off a launch warning anyway.

 

EDIT: Found this: http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig29/mig29-n019-radar/

 

Not sure if its the same radar in the current Mig29 we have however quoted from the "Track while Flyby Section",

"Track-while-flyby mode allows the simultaneous tracking of up to 10 targets, measuring their angular position, range and rate of closure......Track-while-flyby mode is intended to allow missile launch at maximum range with minimal warning to the target, by switching to single target tracking mode as late as possible".

 

So if it is the same radar system that is currently in our Mig29, should it not switch to STT just prior to impact? (Assuming this source can be trusted).

Edited September 20, 2015 by Zurich

[karambiatos]

The R-27ET has the same seeker as the R-73... so barring minor differences it should have the same acquisition range and resistance to flares as the R-73...

 

Right?

It is simmilar though it may seem the R-27ET has better flare resistance at the same range, that's because missiles are a bit weird and the faster the go the better countermeasure resistance they have (ingame) so you'll get situations where an R-73 will be spoofed by a flare while an ET wont give a damn about flares and hit the target.

I'm supposing it's just that at the speed the code of the game doesn't have time to differentiate whats a plane and whats a flare so it just keeps going.

 

Now i know this looks crazy, but i have tested it several patches ago, sadly the track files are now garbage, although you can easily test this, by putting planes in a 360 around the target you are going to pilot and then just giving them one type of missile.

[TAW_Blaze]

The speed and range advantage of the ER over the 120 increases with altitude. Substantially so. If youre high and fast enough and manuever correctly you can use this to at least improve on the SARH/ARH disadvantage. In my experience I can achieve a kill or an extend and still kinetically defeat the 120 coming at me. This becomes a possibility with reliable tracking.

 

That was the point I was trying to make 5 pages back. Sadly the threads gone to s**t since then.

 

You do remember that nearly every Flanker thread I posted in I've been recommending people to fly high because the ER performs the best there, right? :D

 

I know it'll be tougher to do what I said at high altitude but I still think it's highly possible. It requires a lot of experience flying in space which I don't have :)

 

Once they fix the FM and/or the missiles I'll be more interested in flying in space, but for now I'll leave it for the situations where there's no better option.

[Frostie]

Flankers are inferior to Eagles in any comparable context.

 

The best Su-27 variant would be the Su-35S with IBRIS radar, the kW power and F-pole ability on that radar outclasses any F-15 radar, (v)3 AESA gives you LPI and resolution but fixed arrays sacrifice azimuth.

[Exorcet]

Flankers are inferior to Eagles in any comparable context. If you want the latest Su-27, then the Eagle drivers would be justified in wanting the best F-15 with the Best missiles. So AIM-120D and APG63 V3. Back to square one.

Well, not necessarily. The game doesn't have to supply each side with time equivalent equipment. Also, the SM slots well below AESA F-15's. That would be rivals with the Su-35.

 

To me, it seems silly to balance a game by including aircraft that are not date/production #s comparable, since by doing so you erase the context of the aircraft.

Real life doesn't balance sides either, 1990's F-15's don't necessarily have to fight 1990's Flankers. Even within the US arsenal, the aircraft are at different levels of upgrades, so you could have top of the line Flankers fighting aged F-15's and be completely realistic.

 

The R-27ET has the same motor and controls surfaces as the R-27ER. So it should give off the same amount of smoke and have a similar flight performance (albeit slightly different due to the different seeker head).

 

The nose makes a huge difference. There's a reason why subsonic aircraft have rounded noses and fighters have pointed ones. Beyond that, even just making something vaguely sharp doesn't mean it will have great performance. The F-15 nosecone is actually quite draggy, but this sacrifice was made for better radar performance. The ET is outclassed by the ER just on the basis of nosecone.

 

The R-27ET has the same seeker as the R-73... so barring minor differences it should have the same acquisition range and resistance to flares as the R-73...

 

Right?

 

Just by having the ability to go farther, you change the situation that the seeker sees. From afar, your view is much wider. Flares hang out in you're FoV for longer.

[SgtPappy]

The best Su-27 variant would be the Su-35S with IBRIS radar, the kW power and F-pole ability on that radar outclasses any F-15 radar, (v)3 AESA gives you LPI and resolution but fixed arrays sacrifice azimuth.

 

I've heard the APG-63(v)3 is better than even the F-22's APG-77. So then you've got a longer-ranged radar in the Su-35S than even the F-22!

 

Although since the F-22 is stealth and has LPI capability, I suppose it doesn't matter as much.

[Erdem]

To be honest, I can't wait until ED takes another look at missile dynamics. The current Crimea map favors low flyers and balances out Russian BVR deficiency because it's so mountainous. But we could have more problems on flatter maps (Nevada?).

 

Credit to Karambiatos for coining the term the 'Aim120 singularity'. :)The point at which every thread becomes about the amraam. Even in the Su27 subforum. In a thread about russian missiles and tactics.

 

Funny, it happens almost without exception. It usually goes like this:

 

• Someone complains about X on the Russian side not working or not being modelled good enough.
  
• Someone mentions that the Y on the US side is broken too.
  
• Now X and Y is inevitably compared in a post and someone say even when fixed, X will never be as good as Y which completely derails the thread.
  
• Feelings are hurt and people start arguing about which one is ultimately superior.
  

I've been here ever since Lock-On was in development. It never fails. There's quite a bit of patriotic feelings involved too.

[Nerd1000]

Well, not necessarily. The game doesn't have to supply each side with time equivalent equipment. Also, the SM slots well below AESA F-15's. That would be rivals with the Su-35.

 

 

Real life doesn't balance sides either, 1990's F-15's don't necessarily have to fight 1990's Flankers. Even within the US arsenal, the aircraft are at different levels of upgrades, so you could have top of the line Flankers fighting aged F-15's and be completely realistic.

 

 

 

The nose makes a huge difference. There's a reason why subsonic aircraft have rounded noses and fighters have pointed ones. Beyond that, even just making something vaguely sharp doesn't mean it will have great performance. The F-15 nosecone is actually quite draggy, but this sacrifice was made for better radar performance. The ET is outclassed by the ER just on the basis of nosecone.

 

 

 

Just by having the ability to go farther, you change the situation that the seeker sees. From afar, your view is much wider. Flares hang out in you're FoV for longer.

 

But in game the ET seems less prone to being spoofed than the 73.

The ET has more wave drag than the ER and thus less range, but that fact means little because the seeker can't see far enough to engage at distances where that difference is noticeable. Someone earlier in the thread said something about a lock on after launch mode, but its not in game (I gather that the in game missile had the ability but it was removed).

[GGTharos]

Because the real missile doesn't have such capability.

[blkspade]

The point I was making with the cheapshot, is that the Eagle will be able to break off prior to pitbull, and any pursuing flanker will ultimately end up in the basket if they don't give up the lock. Further more flankers have clear advantage with IR missiles and the ET at range. At the point that all radar missile become more effective at range, it potentially negates the effectiveness of IR weapons. 9nm Aim-9 kills are (practically invisible) possible now, as are 13nm ET kills with full AB targets at med to low altitudes. 120s and ERs right now seem most effective at this range, with 120s typically winning out due to fire and forget capability. RU jets at best earn mutual kills with ETs (head-to-head), on an extending F-15, or can completely evade the 120. Not having to be with-in RTR of the ET will ultimately benefit Western jets.

 

As far as the 'singularity', the ER issue don't exist in vacuum. Not only because the issues are universal, but to complain about the RU missile effectiveness always means compared to the US missiles. Its not like your saying my ER vs his ER, as that would be non-sense. Not trying to hijack, but add perspective. Even when things are 'fixed' there is a good possibility the situation will be the same or worse, just at longer ranges.

[Nerd1000]

Because the real missile doesn't have such capability.

 

Indeed. That sort of funny business is restricted to the most modern IR missiles like AIM-9X and ASRAAM.

 

The real utility of the ET over the R-73 is its greater range against targets that are flying away from you. If the target is flying towards you then the effective ranges are likely to be set by the seeker rather than Delta-V, so there is no reason not to fire the more maneuverable R-73 instead.

[Zurich]

Because the real missile doesn't have such capability.

 

Is it safe to say then, that the reason why the Mig29 gives off a radar lock and missile warning when firing ARH missiles is because of the missile? From what I understand (which isn't a whole lot) from here: http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig29/mig29-n019-radar/

 

is that the radar is programmed to only use TWS in the Mig 29 for guidance and doesn't actually give a lock until it enters STT shortly before impact. Is there a source somewhere that states the R77 goes immediately radar active in TWS? Or am I just misunderstanding things?

[DarkFire]

Indeed. That sort of funny business is restricted to the most modern IR missiles like AIM-9X and ASRAAM.

 

The real utility of the ET over the R-73 is its greater range against targets that are flying away from you. If the target is flying towards you then the effective ranges are likely to be set by the seeker rather than Delta-V, so there is no reason not to fire the more maneuverable R-73 instead.

 

This. The incredibly high speed of the R-27Ex family combined with the very high acceleration makes them perfect for tail shots against fleeing targets, or from the rear aspect in general.

[Nerd1000]

Is it safe to say then, that the reason why the Mig29 gives off a radar lock and missile warning when firing ARH missiles is because of the missile? From what I understand (which isn't a whole lot) from here: http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig29/mig29-n019-radar/

 

is that the radar is programmed to only use TWS in the Mig 29 for guidance and doesn't actually give a lock until it enters STT shortly before impact. Is there a source somewhere that states the R77 goes immediately radar active in TWS? Or am I just misunderstanding things?

 

My understanding from that link is that the radar operates in track-while-flyby (I'm fairly certain that this is not TWS as such, but more of a 'mult-target tracking' mode, as it says that volume scanning is disabled when track-while-flyby is activated) until the marked target is in missile launch range, at which point the radar will attempt to aquire the target in STT mode. After that point it is presumably up to the pilot to launch the missile.

 

Its worth noting that the radar being described is the original MiG-29 radar, not the updated N019M Topaz radar used by the MiG-29S.

[wilky510]

Oh dear. The bestest F15 with the bestest missiles? Well then we must all fly F15s. :thumbup:

Why are you being so sarcastic against someone that simply has a different opinion than you have?

 

I mean, it's clear you guys have no respect for American aircraft, and think the AIM-120 is worthless based on "real life data" (I'm a long time lurker, i've seen the 51st bring up the real life AMRAAM PK data numerous times in many threads) but i feel he's right. Could you imagine if we got the AIM-9X with off boresight capability?

 

I think what makes people mad about the Ru missile discussions that constantly happen on these forums is because you guys have WVR, and we have BVR. But everytime one of these threads come along, one side usually one wants the best of both worlds (BVR and WVR). Sure WVR is harder to get into with actives being thrown down your throat, but i thought that makes you guys/gals stronger? being at a disadvantage, sneaking up on Eagles, using superb teamwork and other fun tactics (which i'm sure the 51st is easily capable of, being one of the best squadrons out there).

[Zurich]

My understanding from that link is that the radar operates in track-while-flyby (I'm fairly certain that this is not TWS as such, but more of a 'mult-target tracking' mode, as it says that volume scanning is disabled when track-while-flyby is activated) until the marked target is in missile launch range, at which point the radar will attempt to aquire the target in STT mode. After that point it is presumably up to the pilot to launch the missile.

 

Its worth noting that the radar being described is the original MiG-29 radar, not the updated N019M Topaz radar used by the MiG-29S.

 

Even still, it seems to describe as that it only enters STT after the missile is launched and it is near impact, as it says. I dunno, I guess its just wording at this point. Would like to hear someone chime in on this with more knowledge.

[Pikey]

Last 5 posts have been all around different questions or comments. This thread isn't viable to respond to anymore, it's just a babble.

 

Post 64,68 - R77 will give radar lock warnings if you used the radar, same as the ET if you used the radar, swtch the radar off to avoid this.

 

Post 64, 68 - The TOAD website is giving more detail on the radar than exists in the game, FC3 uses extremely simplified avionics.

 

SU27 denies the AMRAAM advantage in game PvP by flying low and breaking lock creating cheapshots etc, so the 10nm enagagement can suit either, i'm generally finding patient flanker drivers top kill boards not because the plane or weapons are better but because they play better, the style is stronger defensive BFM.

 

Generally if you are in pitbull range and try to go defensive in the Eagle, the SU27 gains the last trick and an upper hand - the Radar off and ET in the burn.

[*Rage*]

As far as the 'singularity', the ER issue don't exist in vacuum. Not only because the issues are universal, but to complain about the RU missile effectiveness always means compared to the US missiles. Its not like your saying my ER vs his ER, as that would be non-sense.

 

Why are you being so sarcastic against someone that simply has a different opinion than you have?

 

An almost identical, current thread in the F15 Subforum about Aim-7 missile usage.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147048

 

Not a single reference to R/ER/ET issues or R77-1 missiles or Pak-Fa or any other nonsense.

[karambiatos]

An almost identical, current thread in the F15 Subforum about Aim-7 missile usage.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147048

 

Not a single reference to R/ER/ET issues or R77-1 missiles or Pak-Fa or any other nonsense.

But the AIM120!!!!

 

This is the issue.

 

Someone asks for Russian missile usage tips or generally not aim-120 stuff, sometimes it could be someone asking for sandwich making tips, and then:

- YOU SEE THE APG-WHATEVER IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD AND YOU SHOULD USE IT IN YOUR SANDWICH, and here's a random spreadsheet to show you why it's better than ham.

Edited September 21, 2015 by karambiatos

[Frostie]

To win with SARH against ARH requires the Flanker to be higher, faster and shoot first, we've known this for years. Having the confidence in the missile and the bandit having to respect the missile is what is missing right now and what would benefit the Flanker. Then you can move onto putting bandits into bad defensive positions by long range shots.

[Frostie]

I mean, it's clear you guys have no respect for American aircraft, and think the AIM-120 is worthless based on "real life data" (I'm a long time lurker, i've seen the 51st bring up the real life AMRAAM PK data numerous times in many threads) but i feel he's right. Could you imagine if we got the AIM-9X with off boresight capability?

I think you're mistaking a simmering of exaggeration rather than a disrespect for real world performance. Just because the missile is like a death ray in one sim doesn't set a standard for the real world. Everyone knows that the AIM-120 is the best current A2A missile on the planet.

 

 

I think what makes people mad about the Ru missile discussions that constantly happen on these forums is because you guys have WVR, and we have BVR. But everytime one of these threads come along, one side usually one wants the best of both worlds (BVR and WVR). Sure WVR is harder to get into with actives being thrown down your throat, but i thought that makes you guys/gals stronger?

 

The F-15 has the advantage in most of WVR right now thanks to the differing FM developers, one being an easier FM made by the devs of F-86 and MiG-15 whilst the other is by the same dev that made the P-51 and A-10C. Just flying those aircraft gives you an impression of how well configured the A-10C and P-51 FM is.

[Nerd1000]

To win with SARH against ARH requires the Flanker to be higher, faster and shoot first, we've known this for years. Having the confidence in the missile and the bandit having to respect the missile is what is missing right now and what would benefit the Flanker. Then you can move onto putting bandits into bad defensive positions by long range shots.

 

In the absence of missiles with a good Pk even when launched under favorable conditions, there is one solution: launch more missiles. F-15s don't respect an incoming ER, but they might respect launches more if they found that they usually had 3 incoming ERs. This isn't optimal and would of course mean engaging fewer targets per sortie (possibly as few as one fighter) but its all the Flanker has against AIM-120 carrying aircraft.

[blkspade]

No, it doesn't. The F-15 isn't capable of keeping up with a flanker in a straight-up turning fight, and there's almost no way to get a flanker out of your TC as long as the flanker pilot has a reasonable clue with respect to conducting BFM. Right now the flanker behaves better throughout the entire envelope compared to the eagle.

 

That's without even going into ridiculous applications of the magic S-key.

 

Lets not forget the fact that the F-15 FM tries to kill you from time to time. I've beaten very few flankers in a dogfight. Mostly end up having to give up speed with low throttle to evade 73s.