Mirage 2000 digest: read this if you aren't clear on what it is/does!

[Azrayen]

Hi,

 

There seems to be many in the community who are a bit confused about what exactly is/does a Mirage 2000.

I though a little digest would do good. Let's try this. :)

 

Disclaimer: this post should in no way be considered as "official" or linked to Razbam; I'm not on Razbam's payroll, however enthousiast I'm of their choice of aircraft for their first DCS module. :thumbup:

All data below describe real life aircraft. What will be implemented in DCS is up to the editor.

 

1] Mirage 2000 vs other Mirages:

We are talking about the Mirage 2000. Designed late 70s. First flight 1978. IOC (french air force) 1984.

 

Initially Dassault Aviation had two "brother" projects:

The "little one" = the Mirage 2000 ; think of it as a French F-16 or MiG-29.

The "big one" = the Mirage 4000 ; think of it as a French F-15 or Su-27.

Due to budget constraints, political choices & military requirement, only the little one was mass-produced.

 

There were numerous other Mirage families in the past, most of them deltas (Mirage III & derivative, Mirage IV) but not all (Mirage F1).

Anyway: the Mirage 2000 is the most recent Mirage family, and it's a brand new design, from scratch (even if a delta looks like a delta):

New engine. New airframe. First Dassault's fighter to get "full" FBW technology (all axis, full authority) allowing for an unstable aerodynamic design (allowing far more maneuverability).

(I'm aware that the Wikipedia english article describes the aircraft as " based on the Mirage III" but I disagree. Based on is misleading, it leads to think it's a variant, which is wrong)

 

So let's not be confused, this is a totally different bird than, for example, the ones who fought in the Israeli skies or above the Falklands/Malvinas.

The first combat missions for the Mirage 2000 took place during the Gulf war (1991) with the Armée de l'Air (French Air Force).

 

 

2] Mirage 2000 vs Mirage 2000:

The Mirage 2000 is in fact a large family of aircraft; some capabilities differ notably between variants, so it's important to get it right, here.

You may compare to the F-16, in fact. For example you can't say that because the recent F-16C block 52 is AMRAAM capable, then the AMRAAM should be included if you're bringing the very early F-16A into DCS. It's just not the same.

 

What RAZBAM is introducing to DCS is a Mirage 2000C RDI S5.

• 2000C: This is the first variant of the Mirage 2000 to go into service. It's a single-seat interceptor, C stands for Chasseur (Fighter) variant. So we don't get a twin-seater.
  There is one more thing to know: two sub-variants exist of the 2000C:
  
  • The RDM one. S1 to S3 (this is the avionics standard or the "block" of the aircraft if you prefer). Aircraft number 1 to 37. Equipped with RDM (Radar Doppler Multifunction) radar and M53-5 engine.
    
  • The RDI one. S4 (aircraft # 38 to 74) and S5 (aircraft # 75 to 124). The last one is the one implemented by Razbam.
    Improvments (in short) are: new radar and associated combat system, new missile, new engine variant (more powerful) M53-P2.
    RDI is the radar name (Radar Doppler Impulse). It's the second generation of radar for the Mirage 2000. It was fielded in 1987 and is an air-to-air specialized radar.
    The RDI is better than the previous RDM in its air-to-air role, but it also looses some capabilities (modes) not linked air-to-air. As such, if an older Mirage 2000C RDM could use the Exocet, a newer (and more efficient fighter) Mirage 2000C RDI cannot.
    It was a choice at the time, driven by the fact that the main customer (French air force) didn't need so much air-to-ground or air-to-surface capabilities: its needs were fulfilled by other dedicated aircraft such as the French/Brit Jaguar.
    Really, it was a matter of making a better fighter, with no money/time spent on mud tasks. Upgrades brang NCTR and enhanced ECCM capabilities.
    RDI over RDM = Much improved range + better look-down/shoot-down capability + Ability to shoot the newer & better Super 530D (fox 1) missile (it replaces the older/less efficient Super 530F).
     
    In its main air-to-air role, the aircraft can employ its Cannons (2x 30mm), Fox1 (Super 530D) and Fox2 (Magic II) missiles.
    In its secondary air-to-ground role, it also can employ its cannons + carry unguided bombs (Mk-82s, Belougas... etc.) or unguided rockets, or GBU-12s (external designation required, no pod); in principle, no more than one type of air-to-ground weapon (+cannons) can be loaded for a flight (avionics limitation).

   

  There are other "main" variants of the Mirage 2000. In short (from older to newer):

  [*]Mirage 2000B: two-seat operational conversion trainer variant (a limited-capabilities twin seater version of the 2000C for the french air force).

  [*]Mirage 2000E and derivative (H, P...) : E stands for Export. All are based on the French 2000C with RDM(+) radar; they equip overseas customers (Egypt, India, Peru, UAE, Greece....) and are able to carry the Atlis TGP (day-only). Single seat and dual seat airframes. With their RDM-based avionics, some are capable of shooting the Exocet anti-ship missile, or (perhaps - no definitive proof) the ARMAT anti-radar missile.

  [*]Mirage 2000N: two-seat nuclear strike variant; french air force only.

  [*]Mirage 2000D: two-seat conventional attack variant, developed from the Mirage 2000N; french air force only. Able to carry TGP.

  [*]Mirage 2000-5s and -9s: Think of those as MLU-upgraded or MLU-level newly-built Mirage 2000s. Much more modern systems than the previous variants. E.g. RDY radar, numerous MFDs.

  • 2000-5F is a dedicated air-to-air fighter, single seat, in service with the french air force only. This is the first "fox 3 shooter" variant (MICA EM).
    
  • other 2000-5s and 2000-9s are new variants for export customers (Taiwan, Qatar, UAE). They come in both single seat and dual seat airframes.
    

 

Hope this helps :)

 

++

Az'

Edited March 1, 2016 by Azrayen
typo + adding FBW & disclaimer

[jojo]

Nice. But for ARMAT it remains to be proven. Appart few pics on Mirage 2000 EM for display not sure it was operational...

 

Edit:

ARMAT has been hung Under Mirage 2000 C RDM.

Edited September 20, 2015 by jojo

[Azrayen]

Agreed. :)

The main point was that ARMAT & RDI = niet, IRL (however a pity this may be).

[Zakatak]

Alright so the RDI S-5 can definitely not use the Exocet, but what about the ARMAT? Any hope of going Wild Weasel?

[jojo]

Alright so the RDI S-5 can definitely not use the Exocet, but what about the ARMAT? Any hope of going Wild Weasel?

 

Common buddy, just read, first post !

[Azrayen]

Read just above :)

Niet means no in russian.

 

Note: I'm not saying it's not feasible. I'm saying it was not done (due to absence of requirement). And as jojo pointed out, there is no certainty (or mostly doubts, then) that the ARMAT was ever operational on any version of the aircraft.

 

So the choice Razbam will have to make is: do we need to have proof that the weapon reached operational (or at least tested-OK) status to implement it onto our DCS model?

[VincentLaw]

I think if a certain piece of equipment was qualified for use and simply never used, then it is realistic to include that equipment as an option. After all, if the entire Armée de l'Air except the Mirage 2000C S5 was grounded (which is basically the situation we will be in), then they might explore the limits of how the plane can be armed.

 

If the aircraft is technically incapable of employing certain equipment, then it is better left out.

 

Unfortunately it is very difficult to find information on certain capabilities of the Mirage 2000C. Even after hours of searching I have only seen two photos of rocket pods on the plane, I have not seen a single photo of the tail hook being tested or used, and not a single picture of GBU-12s on the plane despite the fact that they are definitely being used in operation.

Edited September 20, 2015 by VincentLaw

[ViFF]

Many thanks for this info.

 

How does the Super 530D measure up against its American (AIM-7M) and Soviet (R27R/ER) counterparts?

 

Thanks in advance for some info!

[jojo]

List of export variant and associated radar :

 

Mirage 2000 = Export : RDM + Super 530D Fox 1 missile, RDY + Mica Fox 3 missile.

 

-Mirage 2000 EM : RDM Egypt

-Mirage 2000 EH : RDM India, GBU with Litening pod (custom added capacity)

-Mirage 2000 EG : RDM Greece (AM39 Exocet capacity)

-Mirage 2000 EP : RDM Peru

-Mirage 2000 RAD : RDM UAE, combat + reconnaissance capability with pods (SLAR 2000 radar, COR 2 and Harold photo pods).

-Mirage 2000 EAD : RDM UAE, ultimate RDM with DBS AG mode, Hakim Italian PGM (laser, TV or IR seeker. TV & IR seeker video is transmitted in cockpit thanks to transmission pod, like AGM-62 Walleye or AGM-84 SLAM)

-Mirage 2000-5 EI : RDY Taiwan

-Mirage 2000-5 EDA : RDY Qatar

-Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 : RDY-2 Greece, Exocet, Storm Shadow cruise missile.

-Mirage 2000-9 : RDY-2 UAE, Hakim PGM, Black Shaheen cruise missile.

-Mirage 2000 I : RDY-3 India, upgrade to -5Mk2 level.

[Azrayen]

I think if a certain piece of equipment was qualified for use and simply never used, then it is realistic to include that equipment as an option.

A valid opinion. Unfortunately, the point jojo made was that there is no valid indication that the ARMAT was ever "qualified for use" on the Mirage 2000.

It was certainly envisaged. There even exist some pictures taken on the ground and in the air of a 2000 with ARMAT. But those were of an aircraft going to Paris Le Bourget airshow, a marketing scheme.

Bolting a missile under a pylon "for the show" is easy to do (and often done). Making the aircraft fly with the same missile underwings is another story (it was done here). And making the aircraft capable of using the said missile (separation tests, specific avionics...) is another another story.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Azrayen

[VTJS17_Fire]

Does the 2000C with the S5 upgrade have an air-to-air datalink?

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

[jojo]

Does the 2000C with the S5 upgrade have an air-to-air datalink?

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

 

No it doesn't. S5 is not an upgrade. It's the last 2000 C RDI "block".

 

However Mirage 2000-5F are now fielding link 16.

[goestrip]

Thank you for the clarification, I was a bit surprised (in the good way)by this air-Ground aspect of the 2000C. the more capabilitites, the merrier :)

Can't wait for december !

[Pizzicato]

Thanks for the excellent and informative post, Azrayen. Much appreciated.

[Stealth_HR]

Thanks for the write-up, Azrayen, explains really well what's in the package.

[archimaede]

That's not what's in the package but what should be expected to be in it. So far Razbam have not been 100% clear about wether they'll add the exocet / armat or not.

Anyway, very nice post Az'!

[BlackLion213]

Thank you for the informative post. Am I correct that the Mirage 2000C S-5 is the late-1980s to mid-1990s version of the Mirage?

 

If so I view this as a really good thing.:) I'm looking forward to more 80s-90s fighters to complement the inbound Tomcat, MiG-21, and possible Razbam A-7s (not to mention the hope of more Soviet fighters like the MiG-23, Su-17/22, MiG-25, etc).

 

-Nick

[NeilWillis]

That's not what's in the package but what should be expected to be in it. So far Razbam have not been 100% clear about wether they'll add the exocet / armat or not.

Anyway, very nice post Az'!

 

It looks pretty clear from the comments made about what the M2000C RDI S5 is capable of that neither will be included. I'd be very surprised if they go ahead and include weapons it has no capability to deploy.

[Flogger23m]

A valid opinion. Unfortunately, the point jojo made was that there is no valid indication that the ARMAT was ever "qualified for use" on the Mirage 2000.

It was certainly envisaged. There even exist a picture (airshow?) taken on the ground.

Bolting a missile under a pylon "for the show" is easy to do (and often done). Making the aircraft fly with the same missile underwings is another story. And making the aircraft capable of using the said missile (separation tests, specific avionics...) is another another story.

 

My understanding is that the 2000C is capable, but the French never did it. Much like F-16Cs of various blocks can utilize the AGM-84, but USAF ones don't.

 

The question is if other countries with models based on the C (and not -5/-9) used t he ARMAT. Although those export models may have other minor changes as well, so it might not be as simple as making an Egyptian skin and adding the ARMAT option in the loadout section when using an Egyptian Mirage 2000.

[Airbuster]

Very informative Azrayen, thank you!

[NeilWillis]

My understanding is that the 2000C is capable, but the French never did it. Much like F-16Cs of various blocks can utilize the AGM-84, but USAF ones don't.

 

The question is if other countries with models based on the C (and not -5/-9) used t he ARMAT. Although those export models may have other minor changes as well, so it might not be as simple as making an Egyptian skin and adding the ARMAT option in the loadout section when using an Egyptian Mirage 2000.

 

Perhaps, but at the moment we are getting the French variant, and not the export variants, apart from which, the radar system in ours will not be able to deploy Exocet, and ARMAT has never done anything but hang from a pylon on a parked aircraft of this build at a display.

 

That's why I don't hold my breath for those weapons on the Beta release.

[McBlemmen]

I'm a little dissapointed it (probably) wont carry exocet and armat... when new modules come out i'm always looking for something the module can do that no or almost no other current aircraft can , and both ASW and SEAD are 2 of those things. I don't want unrealistic weapons included i'm just saying it's a shame our variant cant use them

[Azrayen]

@all: thanks for your kind comments.:thumbup:

 

@McBlemmen: I understand, sorry if I have busted your dreams. :huh:

 

Let's cheer you up:

1/ Only with this module you'll be able to replay the best scenes of the movie Les chevaliers du ciel (Sky Fighters)

 

 

The heroes are flying the Mirage 2000C RDI (most of the time; there are also an Alphajet trainer and a Mirage 2000D, the green twin-seater one, in Africa) :)

 

2/ Only with this module you'll be able to fly the best-looking fighter ever (ex-aequo with the Spitfire). :D

 

++

Az'

Edited September 20, 2015 by Azrayen

[Zeus67]

I'm a little dissapointed it (probably) wont carry exocet and armat... when new modules come out i'm always looking for something the module can do that no or almost no other current aircraft can , and both ASW and SEAD are 2 of those things. I don't want unrealistic weapons included i'm just saying it's a shame our variant cant use them

 

So do we and the ARMAT/EXOCET discussion is one that has become quite contentious among us so we have decided to leave it for the end. The EXOCET is very likely no, based on a technical problems: mainly that it needs an air-to-ground radar. The ARMAT is still up in the air.

[Rangi]

. The ARMAT is still up in the air.

So don't turn on your radars just yet.;)