M2000 vs Mig-21

[ttaylor0024]

After two weeks of trying it i can say that the mig doesn't have any chance against the mirage. This only theoretically speaking, if both pilots would be skilled the same. Practically a mig can still be really dangerous, even towards an f-15, a lot of skilled pilots in this community which knows how to use a mig until it's limits. Also a lot of mirage pilots are getting killed because of not having any IFF, it's just damn dangerous to intercept and visually inspect a bogey before shooting it.

I just act like it's still a prototype and i am testing it. :P

 

The mirage is the obvious favorite, as it has the advantage in every way against the MiG-21. Time has shown though if you play on the strengths of the -21 and weaknesses of your enemy the MiG can be a hugely successful aircraft. Myself and countless others that were on the 104th all last year in the -21 proved that when we were finally able to break the 1:1 KDR. Some of those even refined their skills more and you're seeing 3:1+ consistently, proving that the mirage and FC3 aircraft have to stay on top of their game.

 

That being said and having flown the MiG a lot, when I'm on the Mirage v Mig server I definitely play to the weaknesses of the MiG. I know what I would want to do if I was in the situation of the MiG I'm chasing, and subsequently (usually) try to take that move out of play. This involves a lot of very low level flying, and if it gets into a dogfight, very slow speeds. Reasons here are obvious; the max -1.5* lookdown of the MiG radar (and subsequent difficulty to maintain a lock at that angle) and poor low speed capabilities of aircraft not equipped with FBW.

 

 

Always play your advantages over your opponent, and whatever aircraft you choose you need to practice all situations with it.

 

 

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[Hook47]

I am wondering which it is you consider "might be" issues?

 

If its the current massive lack of sustained turn performance it is anything but a "might be" issue, you don't just loose over 2 G's in sustainable load factor :D

 

That the Mirage is currently 'just' able to sustain the load factor at SL that Ball & Pawloski's chart shows it to be capable of sustaining at 15,000 ft should be a clue ;)

 

Maybe you should let me tell you instead of deciding for yourself :doh:... I hate it when words get put into my mouth.

 

I for once agree with you. The MiG is legendary, and every kill is enjoyable more than any other more powerfull plane. The fights against the F5 will be even more epic. I wont be purchasing it, but i will love fighting it.

 

You'd probably agree with me more if you read the content of my post, instead of witch hunts about me claiming the MiG is superior to all known aircraft in the history of ever, when I said nothing of the like. . .

 

These guys...

 

The mirage is the obvious favorite, as it has the advantage in every way against the MiG-21. Time has shown though if you play on the strengths of the -21 and weaknesses of your enemy the MiG can be a hugely successful aircraft. Myself and countless others that were on the 104th all last year in the -21 proved that when we were finally able to break the 1:1 KDR. Some of those even refined their skills more and you're seeing 3:1+ consistently, proving that the mirage and FC3 aircraft have to stay on top of their game.

 

That being said and having flown the MiG a lot, when I'm on the Mirage v Mig server I definitely play to the weaknesses of the MiG. I know what I would want to do if I was in the situation of the MiG I'm chasing, and subsequently (usually) try to take that move out of play. This involves a lot of very low level flying, and if it gets into a dogfight, very slow speeds. Reasons here are obvious; the max -1.5* lookdown of the MiG radar (and subsequent difficulty to maintain a lock at that angle) and poor low speed capabilities of aircraft not equipped with FBW.

 

 

Always play your advantages over your opponent, and whatever aircraft you choose you need to practice all situations with it.

 

 

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

 

Very true. I too find myself picking apart what I know the MiG 21 is weak at when I am in the Mirage, having flown the Fishbed so much I know what points to press... I feel guilty sometimes :) The Mirage certainly has less weaknesses to play to than the MiG 21, but one thing I love about the underdog aircraft (Which both the MiG 21 and Mirage 2000C are part of IMO) is they force you to become that much better of a simpilot to even survive, much more succeed. Great stuff. I'm sure I'll be looking for trouble in the F-5 among others.

 

Agreed on the 104th as well. I freaking love looking for trouble in the MiG with other guys I know who fly it. It is a guaranteed rush when you go out in that plane, as opposed to others where you may run into a boring sortie here and there. . . You also run into immensely skilled pilots in the MiG 21, as the guys who can't make the cut just quit most of the time! I am feeling a similar but also unique challenge with the M2000C on the 104th, in that I am still at a disadvantage, to a lesser degree, but the IFF is making me play very cautiously.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Hook47

[LuSi_6]

just found this

 

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=47

 

can we get a R.550 Magic for the MiG-21?

 

and more interessting: MiG-21 and -23 did shoot down quite some F-14A!

[WinterH]

just found this

 

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=47

 

can we get a R.550 Magic for the MiG-21?

 

and more interessting: MiG-21 and -23 did shoot down quite some F-14A!

If you read the remarks though, it is written that only one F-14 kill can be substantiated in the list.

 

As for the Magic on MiG, those used by the Iraq were Magic 1 as far as I know, which can be considered pretty much the same thing as R-60. Egypt also did put Western missiles on Fishbeds and perhaps Finland too, but I don't know what missiles / variants exactly.

[LuSi_6]

The Mirages vs MiGs server is the best multiplayer experience I ever had in DCS. Who is hostig that server? I feel like I have to donate some $ to keep it running :thumbup:

[Frey]

Yesterday I flew something like: "Mirage vs Mig 21 in mountain". Whether it is precisely this server?

[TomCatMucDe]

Yesterday I flew something like: "Mirage vs Mig 21 in mountain". Whether it is precisely this server?

 

yes this one. The server yesterday wasnt so stable and it crashed a couple of times

[Frey]

It's fun, I fly on Mig. It is a request that would be a schedule of flights, and separate communication TS for both teams.

[TomCatMucDe]

there is a TS but few people use it. You have to ask your team to join it. Indeed it is much more fun when they do.

[LuSi_6]

Yesterday I flew something like: "Mirage vs Mig 21 in mountain". Whether it is precisely this server?

 

yep, this one. :joystick:

 

for one, it's amazing fight right now, but once the Mirageis fixed ( IFF, missle performance) it will turn into a real challange for the MiGs...

[enigma6584]

While true, good luck getting into range of a competent Eagle driver at altitude. Most anybody flying the 21 knows their best chance to get close is with terrain masking. They're a sitting duck at altitude 12-20nm from an Eagle, or basically any of the other 4th gen fighters.

 

The Mig-21 was designed for specific parameters/missions. It did it's job for its time. Also, many here are forgetting that if it were the real world and the mission designers actually tried to emulate the real world in DCS, for every F-15C there should be 3-4 Mig-21s coming at them. What was an old communist phrase? Quantity has a quality all its own.

[GGTharos]

1 MiG-21 maybe. The other 2-3 were used for spare parts for the working one. ;)

 

for every F-15C there should be 3-4 Mig-21s coming at them.

[ttaylor0024]

yep, this one. :joystick:

 

for one, it's amazing fight right now, but once the Mirageis fixed ( IFF, missle performance) it will turn into a real challange for the MiGs...

 

They could easily turn it into an IR missile only or guns only server. It's more fun that way anyway

[King_Hrothgar]

I don't think that would work. As it stands today, the MiG-21's only real advantage over the Mirage is its missiles. Take those away, and the Mirage will simply walk all over it with its greatly superior agility. I think the Mirage vs MiG-21 thing right now is only temporary, I doubt it has any future. The MiG-21 will have to wait for the F-5E while the Mirage 2000 takes its place alongside the various FC3 aircraft.

[ttaylor0024]

I don't think that would work. As it stands today, the MiG-21's only real advantage over the Mirage is its missiles. Take those away, and the Mirage will simply walk all over it with its greatly superior agility. I think the Mirage vs MiG-21 thing right now is only temporary, I doubt it has any future. The MiG-21 will have to wait for the F-5E while the Mirage 2000 takes its place alongside the various FC3 aircraft.

 

IR missiles would be more than a fun fight. As it stands now it's extremely easy to take R-3Rs out of play by flying tree top level, which nearly anyone that previously flew the MiG does already.

 

But yes, I know what you're saying here. The Mirage is more maneuverable than the F-15, and depending on how high you fly, more so an the rest of the FC3 aircraft as well. MiG-21 vs F-5E will be dominated by the MiG (as long as they keep the AMRAAMs off the F-5)

[blkspade]

1 MiG-21 maybe. The other 2-3 were used for spare parts for the working one. ;)

 

Eagles run a MiG parts distribution service.

[blkspade]

The Mig-21 was designed for specific parameters/missions. It did it's job for its time. Also, many here are forgetting that if it were the real world and the mission designers actually tried to emulate the real world in DCS, for every F-15C there should be 3-4 Mig-21s coming at them. What was an old communist phrase? Quantity has a quality all its own.

 

Conveniently enough every Eagle can engage 4 of those MiGs each.

[Esac_mirmidon]

100% Pk never exists.

 

Think about 1978 F-15A in Soesterberg, a typical 4 Eagles formation in QRA against 12 Mig-21 with massive ECM support and GCI guidance. ( Soviet Doctrine )

Edited January 7, 2016 by Esac_mirmidon

[GGTharos]

I'm thinking about 1978, 4 eagles with massive AWACS and own ECM and SAM support running 10 MiG-21's out of fuel and eating the rest ;)

 

If you were talking tanks, ok. When you're talking western vs eastern jets, not so much. There weren't any more on one side than the other.

[Esac_mirmidon]

The same GCI, SAM support and ECM cover by the Soviet Union plus much more numbers the very first day of an european conflict.

 

I doubt almost any western Europe airdrome could survive a first surprise massive soviet attack. With a handful of Eagles, RAF Phantoms and Starfighters prepared to face the first wave it could be a very hard blow. Obviously soviet losses would be appaling but numbers at first would make a breach.

 

And Mig-21 and Mig-23 could have a good opportunity.

 

 

The following days who knows.

[GGTharos]

Because the first attack was to be a nuclear attack.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Well im talking about conventional war. Nukes will change everything.

[GGTharos]

The first strike was not going to be conventional. If it was, I think those short ranges 21s wouldn't get terribly far.

 

Not is it safe to assume that an assault could be easily launched with complete surprise.

[Esac_mirmidon]

They were also Mig-23, Mig-25.

 

If an Iraqui Mig-25 shooted down a F-18 we can assume the whole Soviet Air Force stationed in Western Europe could shoot down one F-15. Maybe two in a lucky first day.

[GGTharos]

Let's not go into the F-18 shot down. That was a situation that should not have happened and ended up with the USN telling the USAF they wouldn't be looking for their permission to engage anymore.

 

Anyway as far as the cold war goes, I'm sure if would have been one huge furball. I really haven't looked at the orbat for those times, but there were other western players there as well.