Flood mode after lock is lost?

[rami80]

I was flying in multiplayer and after avoiding one of an F-15's amraams a missile launch warning is heard but no missile is launched, the F-15 wasn't using an AIM-7. Has the realistic behavior of switching to FLOOD finally been implemented ?

[pr1malr8ge]

No they did not.

I first thought this issue was the missile hooking but after playing the other day I'm pretty sure there is an issue with the RWR..

 

What i saw was when I was being locked up by a friendly [who either trying to piss me off or just was plain stupid.] and while he had me hard lock we flew right past each other with in 20 feet or so. anyway as we passed his rwr signature followed all the way around on the display and showed him behind me for a good 3-5 seconds still giving me the lock cue. Which is what I've noticed with amrams also. After I defeat a missile by kimatic and or notching its cue follows around the rwr and then continues behind me.

[Santi871]

After I defeat a missile by kimatic and or notching its cue follows around the rwr and then continues behind me.

 

That's probably because the missile's antenna is still pointed at you and emitting.

[pr1malr8ge]

That's probably because the missile's antenna is still pointed at you and emitting.

 

I thought about that also the first few times it happened but when that friendly fire incident when we were flying against each other the other day this is when I put two and two together.. His spike on my rwr followed 180* around and I know for a fact he couldn't have turned fast enough. he was doing 400kts at the time we "merged"

[AussieGhost789]

No they did not.

I first thought this issue was the missile hooking but after playing the other day I'm pretty sure there is an issue with the RWR..

 

What i saw was when I was being locked up by a friendly [who either trying to piss me off or just was plain stupid.] and while he had me hard lock we flew right past each other with in 20 feet or so. anyway as we passed his rwr signature followed all the way around on the display and showed him behind me for a good 3-5 seconds still giving me the lock cue. Which is what I've noticed with amrams also. After I defeat a missile by kimatic and or notching its cue follows around the rwr and then continues behind me.

 

Does RWR have memory in a similar way that the radar does? By that I mean , will it continue to display a threat for a few seconds after the emissions are no longer being detected? If so, that might explain it.

 

And to answer the OP, FLOOD mode does give a launch warning now (at least it did in the last version, so I'm assuming it still does in 1.5).

[Svend_Dellepude]

Does RWR have memory in a similar way that the radar does? By that I mean , will it continue to display a threat for a few seconds after the emissions are no longer being detected? If so, that might explain it.

 

Yes it does, but don't remember for how long it is and it will not update position AFAIK.

 

And to answer the OP, FLOOD mode does give a launch warning now (at least it did in the last version, so I'm assuming it still does in 1.5).

 

I think it has changed back to not give a launch warning but light up on RWR as an emitter.

[red_coreSix]

Yes it does. It's going to display every STT emitter for another 4 seconds or so to make sure you don't miss anything.

[pr1malr8ge]

Does RWR have memory in a similar way that the radar does? By that I mean , will it continue to display a threat for a few seconds after the emissions are no longer being detected? If so, that might explain it.

It does have memory but following me 180* it shouldn't do. Once in the merge the RWR should only display the contact infront for a few seconds the go silent it should not hook 180* while constantly beeping.

 

And to answer the OP, FLOOD mode does give a launch warning now (at least it did in the last version, so I'm assuming it still does in 1.5).

Current 1.5 it does not give a launch warning nor show up on rwr

[SDsc0rch]

yeah i don't like how the aircraft is receiving indications that i may be under fire

 

and i'm not being notified

 

 

this is a dangerous configuration and should be changed

[winchesterdelta1]

 

 

Current 1.5 it does not give a launch warning nor show up on rwr

 

Yesterday i tested it with sweeper, and you get a lock warning tone when using flood mode on somebody.

[SDsc0rch]

ah

 

rgr that

[IASGATG]

So flood mode no longer triggers a missile warning alert, only an STT alert?

[SDsc0rch]

i think that is the case

 

you could have a missile headed your way, but you do not receive a corresponding indication

 

the launching aircraft is utilizing a mode whose sole purpose is to guide a missile, and the system does not issue a signal that reflects that priority

 

can anyone explain the logic in that??

[Svend_Dellepude]

Seems a bit odd, but first of all the flood mode is not working in game like it is IRL (at least AFAIK), second, the flood horn is a different radar piece of equipment than the main radar.

It seems that the flood horn sprayes out HPRF but if there is any M-link established in that mode i dont know. There might not be since it's not the main dish emitting.

 

https://books.google.com.pe/books?id=wBRM5RRWZ3oC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=f-15+flood+horn&source=bl&ots=OwA3eN86_8&sig=ChsFulJpTlcQaXTMy0T9dmCWElg&hl=da&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=f-15%20flood%20horn&f=true

 

So maybe the logic is that HPRF without M-link should be regarded as a lock but not launch.

Then again, a RWR can be programmed to give a launch warning if the strength from a ceertain radar rises over a given threshold.

I guess it basicly comes down to how the recieving RWR is programmed.

A last option is that nobody actually really knows how this work and one guess is as good as another.

 

This is my take on this and should be taken for what it is.

I bet GG has some more solid info than what i can deliever, should he choose to pop by.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Svend_Dellepude

[FLANKERATOR]

I too believe that the Flood mode should only give a lock warning but no launch tone, this is at least what I understood from how this mode works; it says that it makes the radar emit heavily to the front sector (flood circle) but without concentrating all its energy on a specific target like in STT, then the missile once fired guides to the strongest reflection, so I don't see how an M link could be generated without STT. Just throwing in my two cents.

[Nerd1000]

I too believe that the Flood mode should only give a lock warning but no launch tone, this is at least what I understood from how this mode works; it says that it makes the radar emit heavily to the front sector (flood circle) but without concentrating all its energy on a specific target like in STT, then the missile once fired guides to the strongest reflection, so I don't see how an M link could be generated without STT. Just throwing in my two cents.

 

STT is still a pulse doppler mode (it has to be for ranging). FLOOD causes the radar to emit in continuous wave mode, which is almost always used for guiding missiles (and measuring velocity when range is not needed or is already known, for example in police radar guns). The power output of the radar doesn't have a say in the matter- the RWR doesn't know how far the enemy radar is from its position and incoming radar energy decreases with the square of the distance, so incoming power doesn't really tell you whether there is an incoming missile.

[red_coreSix]

We have had this discussion about missile launch warnings before so let's not do that again. It depends like Svend pointed out on how the RWR is programmed, and we have no information about if the RWR of the F-15 can decode a m-link.

 

But launch warning or not it should definitely give off an STT warning and personally that'd be enough for me since I don't use that mode really often.

[GGTharos]

STT is still a pulse doppler mode (it has to be for ranging). FLOOD causes the radar to emit in continuous wave mode, which is almost always used for guiding missiles (and measuring velocity when range is not needed or is already known, for example in police radar guns).

 

The APG-63 uses the HSTT mode for Sparrow guidance. FLOOD emits the exact same HSTT signal. That's straight out of the -34. AFAIK, FLOOD probably doesn't emit the m-link.

 

CW mode has been deleted from the -63 for decades now.

 

The power output of the radar doesn't have a say in the matter- the RWR doesn't know how far the enemy radar is from its position and incoming radar energy decreases with the square of the distance, so incoming power doesn't really tell you whether there is an incoming missile.

Sure it does. There's nothing stopping you from programming the RWR to say if STT and this much power -> missile launch.

[GGTharos]

FLOOD is an emergency mode. It operates automatically when there is a sparrow in-flight and the track drops, or if the sparrow is launched without an HSTT track.

 

In the case that FLOOD comes online when the missile is already in flight, should the missile launch warning continue? I'd say yes (m-link was generated in the original launch, you got the warning in the first place, and as far as the RWR goes, almost nothing has changed)

 

In the case that FLOOD comes online when the missile is launched without HSTT (or rather, without any sort of track at all) should you get a launch warning? Maybe not.

 

But that's reality. What we have in-game is fair enough. FLOOD is a last ditch/emergency mode, not some every-day use radar mode. It is used BECAUSE normal radar function has somehow failed.

 

I too believe that the Flood mode should only give a lock warning but no launch tone, this is at least what I understood from how this mode works; it says that it makes the radar emit heavily to the front sector (flood circle) but without concentrating all its energy on a specific target like in STT, then the missile once fired guides to the strongest reflection, so I don't see how an M link could be generated without STT. Just throwing in my two cents.

[GGTharos]

Seems a bit odd, but first of all the flood mode is not working in game like it is IRL (at least AFAIK), second, the flood horn is a different radar piece of equipment than the main radar.

It seems that the flood horn sprayes out HPRF but if there is any M-link established in that mode i dont know. There might not be since it's not the main dish emitting.

 

Yep, both STT and FLOOD use the same HSTT signal to guide sparrow, but FLOOD most likely does not generate the m-link, since by definition you are not tracking anything when using FLOOD.

 

Then again, a RWR can be programmed to give a launch warning if the strength from a ceertain radar rises over a given threshold.

I guess it basicly comes down to how the recieving RWR is programmed.

 

The STT radar beam angle is about 1.5 deg (maybe 2? I forget). The FLOOD antenna angle is 20 deg or so. As a result, you're going to receive much less power from FLOOD than you would from STT beyond a certain distance, which is probably on the order of two nm (number made up on the spot, did not want to do the math :P )

[FLANKERATOR]

FLOOD is an emergency mode. It operates automatically when there is a sparrow in-flight and the track drops, or if the sparrow is launched without an HSTT track.

 

In the case that FLOOD comes online when the missile is already in flight, should the missile launch warning continue? I'd say yes (m-link was generated in the original launch, you got the warning in the first place, and as far as the RWR goes, almost nothing has changed)

 

In the case that FLOOD comes online when the missile is launched without HSTT (or rather, without any sort of track at all) should you get a launch warning? Maybe not.

 

But that's reality. What we have in-game is fair enough. FLOOD is a last ditch/emergency mode, not some every-day use radar mode. It is used BECAUSE normal radar function has somehow failed.

 

Yes, this is what I said but was not aware of the automatic emergency mode and kind of surprised a bit as can not refrain from thinking about what could happen if a friendly is next to the target when the track drops and Flood takes over.

[GGTharos]

If there's a friendly there, why are you shooting? That's not to say you shouldn't but it's a question you need to ask.

 

If the friendly is in danger, what's the bigger risk to the friendly? Why would that missile be looking at the friendly if he's got angular separation from the bandit?

 

Real life isn't airquake. Shots aren't taken just to rack up some lonewolf's kills while endangering your own - notable exceptions non-withstanding.

Edited October 29, 2015 by GGTharos

[red_coreSix]

The STT radar beam angle is about 1.5 deg (maybe 2? I forget). The FLOOD antenna angle is 20 deg or so. As a result, you're going to receive much less power from FLOOD than you would from STT beyond a certain distance, which is probably on the order of two nm (number made up on the spot, did not want to do the math :P )

 

Okay, please tell me how you could shrink the radar beam on an MSA antenna. I never got that. In an PESA or AESA platform you could but how would you do that for a mechanical antenna. In STT the radar generates range and velocity gates and blocks out everything else that doesn't match. But the radar beam is never shrinked or is it? Please explain.

[pr1malr8ge]

This is a response from a former eagle driver on the subject

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by pr1malr8ge

[GGTharos]

FLOOD uses the FLOOD horn, not the radar antenna. The radar antenna is in fact driven down and away from the FLOOD horn. They're separate pieces of equipment.

 

Okay, please tell me how you could shrink the radar beam on an MSA antenna. I never got that. In an PESA or AESA platform you could but how would you do that for a mechanical antenna. In STT the radar generates range and velocity gates and blocks out everything else that doesn't match. But the radar beam is never shrinked or is it? Please explain.