Missile warning system

[Jafferson]

I found some more about this Picture...

I see a

-Laser warning receiver

-Radar warning Receiver

-Missile approche warning System

-Optical jammer turret

-Radar Jammer

-Chaff/flare dispenser

http://aviation-arab.net/showthread.php?t=4511

 

The Pastel / SPO-32 / L150 (RWR) was produced 1983, its not imposible the KA50 from the 80s is without one.

http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM%20PICTURES%20&%20DOCS/Overscan's%20guide%20to%20Russian%20Military%20Avionics.htm

 

Here are some more informations about the L370 Vitebsk System.

http://www.airtalk.org/vitebsk-self-protection-suite-receives-ka-50-helicopter-test-vt13714.html

 

So we can see this Systems are real :)

 

In my opinion the lack of MWS feels more like a bug or somthing unfinished.

The solution is easy...

I dont say model a whole new Cockpit, all what i want is a massage from Betty when a Missile approche "Warning under attack!" bindet to the still installed direction indicator in the Cockpit, some chaffs too and everything is fine.

I dont care the 80s and the Argument its a early model, we can simulate a prototype. The shkval at the Picture tells me its not a KA-50N or KA-50sh model, its a old one with this Systems.

Its more realistic to have this abilities like flying without them, and in this special case i dont care missing something in the Cockpit.

 

ED please stop torturing us and fix this.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Jafferson

[FSKRipper]

I really don't know what you want to show.

The articles you are reffering to clearly speak of a system which was tested in 2004 on a KA-50 and were not ready for mass production. These systems were planned to upgrade the Mi8, Mi24, Mi26, and the Kamov Family. The arabian article shows (as much as I can translate and see) the KA-52 and the Mi28 as working platforms. But not the Ka-50 fleet.

 

You can transfer this to every module, f.e.

 

1. Why has the MiG-21 no GPS like actual Bison variants?

 

2. Why we are flying an old (Suite 3?) A-10C and not the actual version?

 

3. Why are even trainers like the Hawk are not up to date with MFD's?

 

The reason is the developers modeled a specific block or airframe. I think instead of begging for updates on a prototype and testbed for modern hardware (which would surely contain classified information) we would be luckier to ask for the development of a KA-52 or a Mi-28.

 

P.S. The developers are always open to arguments which can be proved. If you can deliver actual photos and/or evidence about these systems are currently in use on the KA-50 fleet you may be lucky in getting such an upgrade in the future. Otherwise it is not more than pure speculation. You can't seriously speak of simulating something made only from information based on Wikipedia and some aviation magazines.

Edited November 1, 2015 by FSKRipper

[Silver_Dragon]

2. Why we are flying an old (Suite 3?) A-10C and not the actual version?

 

The A-10C module was make to a military contract to a desktop trainer to the Air National Guard (USA). They make authorization to ED to make a "entrainment" version but only authorize a "degrade" version.

[FSKRipper]

The question was rhetoric :music_whistling:

 

Since this was a contract (years ago) for the Air National Guard (if I remember correctly) we could expect that ED would not receive any official information on further Upgrades which they are allowed to use. The same could happen to the KA-50 or the systems tested on this platform...

I would expect that national security in Russia is at least as strict as in the US.

Edited November 1, 2015 by FSKRipper

[Avimimus]

I agree in principle.

 

However, none of the ECM options are modelled to their full fidelity in FC3 (for security reasons). It doesn't mean that there isn't a rough simulation of their effects. The same will be true of aircraft like the Ef-2000.

 

The problem is that Black Shark was a flag ship high-fidelity product aimed at perfectly recreating one prototype and assisting bids on defence contracts. This doesn't apriori prevent an FC3 Ka-50 from being created - it is a matter of policy, choice, and profitability.

[domini99]

The A-10C module was make to a military contract to a desktop trainer to the Air National Guard (USA). They make authorization to ED to make a "entrainment" version but only authorize a "degrade" version.

The difference between the older A-10C we have and the newest A-10C available isn't that drastic either.

 

For me, the thing has to be simulated in such way that I could get the thing running in real life by learning the simulation on my desktop. That's why I dislike FC3

 

I'm confident, that if I'd encounter a real A-10C I would be able to get it started up. Flying the thing is a whole different story tho.

 

If anything on our DCS: A-10C is in such way inaccurate that it would not allow me to get the real aircraft running, this'd be quite a bummer to me.

[Strelok]

In my opinion the lack of MWS feels more like a bug or somthing unfinished.

The solution is easy...

I dont say model a whole new Cockpit, all what i want is a massage from Betty when a Missile approche "Warning under attack!" bindet to the still installed direction indicator in the Cockpit, some chaffs too and everything is fine.

I dont care the 80s and the Argument its a early model, we can simulate a prototype. The shkval at the Picture tells me its not a KA-50N or KA-50sh model, its a old one with this Systems.

Its more realistic to have this abilities like flying without them, and in this special case i dont care missing something in the Cockpit.

 

ED please stop torturing us and fix this :worthy:

 

I don't get what is exactly your problem...

 

Few days ago i bought Ka-50 so Im beginner but I already played some campaign missions and my own missions that have huge amount of air defences and lack of MWS in Ka-50 doesn't seem to me as big issue. Yeah I do understand that if you have clue that something wants to kill you then it gives you a little advantage if you know about it... but Ka-50 is gunship so with good strategy you can avoid most of air defences (not in every case... you need also a bit of luck, you can't predict everything...).

I even wonder how much helpful RWR/MWS in Ka-50 is anyways? Black Shark is not SAM buster and if you get too close to any radar guided air defences that starts engage you there isnt many things that you can do for saving you're ass.

 

I have a lots of hours spent in A10C that have RWR, MWS and whole bunch of countermeasurements and still it have relatively low survivability in SAM environments. So yeah... as was already said its more about tactics than about MWS.

 

And keep in mind that you have datalink feature in Ka-50...

Edited November 2, 2015 by Strelok

[AussieGhost789]

I agree in principle.

 

However, none of the ECM options are modelled to their full fidelity in FC3 (for security reasons). It doesn't mean that there isn't a rough simulation of their effects. The same will be true of aircraft like the Ef-2000.

 

The problem is that Black Shark was a flag ship high-fidelity product aimed at perfectly recreating one prototype and assisting bids on defence contracts. This doesn't apriori prevent an FC3 Ka-50 from being created - it is a matter of policy, choice, and profitability.

 

Yes, but the FC3 aircraft blocks/varients that have ECM in game also have it in the real world. It's not an issue of whether or not it can be accurately simulated, rather whether the specific version that is modelled is equipped with it.

[Jafferson]

I really don't know what you want to show.

The articles you are reffering to clearly speak of a system which was tested in 2004 on a KA-50 and were not ready for mass production. These systems were planned to upgrade the Mi8, Mi24, Mi26, and the Kamov Family. The arabian article shows (as much as I can translate and see) the KA-52 and the Mi28 as working platforms. But not the Ka-50 fleet.

 

You can transfer this to every module, f.e.

 

1. Why has the MiG-21 no GPS like actual Bison variants?

 

2. Why we are flying an old (Suite 3?) A-10C and not the actual version?

 

3. Why are even trainers like the Hawk are not up to date with MFD's?

 

The reason is the developers modeled a specific block or airframe. I think instead of begging for updates on a prototype and testbed for modern hardware (which would surely contain classified information) we would be luckier to ask for the development of a KA-52 or a Mi-28.

 

P.S. The developers are always open to arguments which can be proved. If you can deliver actual photos and/or evidence about these systems are currently in use on the KA-50 fleet you may be lucky in getting such an upgrade in the future. Otherwise it is not more than pure speculation. You can't seriously speak of simulating something made only from information based on Wikipedia and some aviation magazines.

 

Yes, the articel is from 2004, more than 10 years ago...

[[Knight]]

Here is something that might help you KA-50 guys, online anyway. Never fly into the WP, they usually mark an AO, always hold short about 10 km before, scan the area with your shkval while doubling back to your abris for a reference of SAMs and AAA. Study target acquisition to identify the bigger threats. its not hard. just time consuming. A real pilot would never just say la-dee-dah and rush in and die. This is a sim and if you don't want to take the time on complex missions then go do instant action or go play another game. IMO the black shark don't need a RWR its fine the way it is. Some guys have been flying the BS for 7 years don't have an issue with it, its not the aircraft its the operator. I'm not trying to be a dick but if I come on that way sorry I'm just strait forward.

 

Now to the reason why there isn't a RWR in the BS it could very well be the model that was recreated or the info is classified. You will see this allot if your new here, this is why we don't have certain air-frames like the F-22 and AH-64D. ED is trying for the most fidelity without the cost of make up systems witch may be fine for some, but us hardcore simmers want accurate models and systems at the highest fidelity.

Edited November 2, 2015 by [Knight]

[Jafferson]

;2540097']Here is something that might help you KA-50 guys, online anyway. Never fly into the WP, they usually mark an AO, always hold short about 10 km before, scan the area with your shkval while doubling back to your abris for a reference of SAMs and AAA. Study target acquisition to identify the bigger threats. its not hard. just time consuming. A real pilot would never just say la-dee-dah and rush in and die. This is a sim and if you don't want to take the time on complex missions then go do instant action or go play another game. IMO the black shark don't need a RWR its fine the way it is. Some guys have been flying the BS for 7 years don't have an issue with it, its not the aircraft its the operator. I'm not trying to be a dick but if I come on that way sorry I'm just strait forward.

 

Now to the reason why there isn't a RWR in the BS it could very well be the model that was recreated or the info is classified. You will see this allot if your new here, this is why we don't have certain air-frames like the F-22 and AH-64D. ED is trying for the most fidelity without the cost of make up systems witch may be fine for some, but us hardcore simmers want accurate models and systems at the highest fidelity.

 

And a real Pilot never say la-dee-dah i fly without a countermesure System, but DCS pilots do. The Missile threat is somthing u cant handel with skill, its only depending on Luck. Taking time for complex Mission is not a Problem for me.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Jafferson

[Jafferson]

We all talked a lot about the Need of those sytems and how authentic it is.

Ok i agree the DCS Blackshark is a early model from the developement stage.

But my original question was what the Switch in the left Forward Panel does, you can read the Manual page 86-87 Switch 17 to know what i mean.

17. Missile warning system with laser jammer, self protection system mode of operation select, No function

Can someone explain what System this exactly is and whats the difference between the Operation modes? And why without function?

[GGTharos]

AFAIK it is the same model that actually saw combat. The sharks with all the fancy avionics are the prototypes/demonstrators.

 

The switch having no function can be for any number of reasons, RL or simulation.

[Jafferson]

AFAIK it is the same model that actually saw combat. The sharks with all the fancy avionics are the prototypes/demonstrators.

 

The switch having no function can be for any number of reasons, RL or simulation.

 

But that does not explain the function or the System? :)

Edited November 2, 2015 by Jafferson

[[Knight]]

And a real Pilot never say la-dee-dah i fly without a countermesure System, but DCS pilots do. The Missile threat is somthing u cant handel with skill, its only depending on Luck. Taking time for complex Mission is not a Problem for me.

 

I'm sorry to say but the missile threat being handled with skill is all truth and most Dcs pilots that play this game will tell you the same although an acquired skill that comes from 100's of hours of playing and practice. Leaving your countermeasures off is a stupid move and would rob you of any chance of survival. That is fine if your not hardcore and you want to go shoot things but if that is the case hop in an F-15 shoot all your missles at an enemy and runaway. maybe 1 will hit.

 

We all talked a lot about the Need of those sytems and how authentic it is.

Ok i agree the DCS Blackshark is a early model from the developement stage.

But my original question was what the Switch in the left Forward Panel does, you can read the Manual page 86-87 Switch 17 to know what i mean.

17. Missile warning system with laser jammer, self protection system mode of operation select, No function

Can someone explain what System this exactly is and whats the difference between the Operation modes? And why without function?

 

There were only a handful of Ka-50's made and all of them being test beds, some saw combat but they are not a line of defense. The one we are flying is most likely a base model that has the standard buttons and switches plus any extras to later integrate systems for further testing. Just like in a real aircraft there are stickers next to the switch that designate INOP.

[Jafferson]

;2541028']I'm sorry to say but the missile threat being handled with skill is all truth and most Dcs pilots that play this game will tell you the same although an acquired skill that comes from 100's of hours of playing and practice. Leaving your countermeasures off is a stupid move and would rob you of any chance of survival. That is fine if your not hardcore and you want to go shoot things but if that is the case hop in an F-15 shoot all your missles at an enemy and runaway. maybe 1 will hit.

 

 

 

There were only a handful of Ka-50's made and all of them being test beds, some saw combat but they are not a line of defense. The one we are flying is most likely a base model that has the standard buttons and switches plus any extras to later integrate systems for further testing. Just like in a real aircraft there are stickers next to the switch that designate INOP.

 

Is this so hard to understand, i dont say leave countermesures off. We talking about MWS, DCS ka50 have no MWS. Thats what i mean when i say we flying without countermesures. In 300 Flight houres the LWS gave me a warning 3 times, in most combat situations its useles. But if something unexpectet happens, LWS warns you and give the Pilot a Chance to survive. With the lack of MWS you have no Chance to survive if somthing unexpectet happens. So Survivability is based on Luck, you been hit or not. You can fly like a Boss but this cant prevent you from somthing unexpected, because you never ever have full Situation awarnes of the battlefield.

 

I have no Problems to hit somthin until my laser is overheating, thats not my Problem. Why you are so scared, maybe you are a frustrated F15 Pilot cant hit somthing else like a helples KA50?

I see the answer comming, fly under the Radar...

And from where did you get this Information about the KA50?

[blkspade]

The F-15 doesn't have a system to detect IR launches, I think it should cause they exist. The A10 has one, why cant the F15.

[[Knight]]

Is this so hard to understand, i dont say leave countermesures off. We talking about MWS, DCS ka50 have no MWS. Thats what i mean when i say we flying without countermesures. In 300 Flight houres the LWS gave me a warning 3 times, in most combat situations its useles. But if something unexpectet happens, LWS warns you and give the Pilot a Chance to survive. With the lack of MWS you have no Chance to survive if somthing unexpectet happens. So Survivability is based on Luck, you been hit or not. You can fly like a Boss but this cant prevent you from somthing unexpected, because you never ever have full Situation awarnes of the battlefield.

 

I have no Problems to hit somthin until my laser is overheating, thats not my Problem. Why you are so scared, maybe you are a frustrated F15 Pilot cant hit somthing else like a helples KA50?

I see the answer comming, fly under the Radar...

And from where did you get this Information about the KA50?

 

The model that is in the game is the model without mws because the version ED recreated is the version that didn't have it, is that hard to understand or do I need to repeat it for the 4th time and there is a big difference in being scared and stupid. You can go read all the other post over again with multiple people telling you the same thing but you just don't want to believe it. Here I'll help you, GO PLAY ARMA 2 they have a ka-52 that has all you want and ask for.

 

Survivability is based on Luck

Then i guess we should all start playing the lottery

 

Why you are so scared, maybe you are a frustrated F15 Pilot cant hit somthing else like a helples KA50?

 

Please don't insult me or my squadron, I offered my help and gave you reasoning behind my answers.

 

You know what I'll just call up my buddies at ED and tell them there is this kid on the forums that wants a MWS in the KA-50. I'm sure they will dump their cash and resources in making a version just for you.

[domini99]

I see the answer comming, fly under the Radar...

 

That doesn't work when the average F15 operates at an altitude of 10 feet above ground level.

[blkspade]

That doesn't work when the average F15 operates at an altitude of 10 feet above ground level.

 

Below a certain speed the choppers don't even show up on radar. When they do show up maintaining a lock isn't always possible. The low speed and low AGL results in low PK radar missile shots. You ultimately will end up close enough to use IR or guns. Most of the time I'll only bother them if they are in the immediate vicinity of an airfield I need to land at. Lets be honest, they wouldn't not kill me on the ground if given the chance.

[domini99]

Below a certain speed the choppers don't even show up on radar. When they do show up maintaining a lock isn't always possible. The low speed and low AGL results in low PK radar missile shots. You ultimately will end up close enough to use IR or guns. Most of the time I'll only bother them if they are in the immediate vicinity of an airfield I need to land at. Lets be honest, they wouldn't not kill me on the ground if given the chance.

True, but without an RWR I won't even known the F15 is close.

I can't really say the visibility out of the tiny windows is really great.

 

Against radar SAMS flying slow works very well.

They rarely even target me when I'm hovering, surface-to-air threats aren't that bad if you watch where you fly and fly slowly and stealthy, air-to-air threats are the most dangerous IMO

[blkspade]

True, but without an RWR I won't even known the F15 is close.

I can't really say the visibility out of the tiny windows is really great.

 

Against radar SAMS flying slow works very well.

They rarely even target me when I'm hovering, surface-to-air threats aren't that bad if you watch where you fly and fly slowly and stealthy, air-to-air threats are the most dangerous IMO

 

The Russian RWR would be useless for telling you whats looking at you anyway. On missions that aren't EvW, the eagle/warthog RWRs are relatively useless without a radar to IFF. By the time you'd know its a threat, without assisting assets, its engaging you. At which point its already too late. What you need to be operating a chopper in a warzone is a CAP flight or air superiority. Otherwise you're living on a prayer.

[Fri13]

I don't get what is exactly your problem...

 

Few days ago i bought Ka-50 so Im beginner but I already played some campaign missions and my own missions that have huge amount of air defences and lack of MWS in Ka-50 doesn't seem to me as big issue. Yeah I do understand that if you have clue that something wants to kill you then it gives you a little advantage if you know about it... but Ka-50 is gunship so with good strategy you can avoid most of air defences (not in every case... you need also a bit of luck, you can't predict everything...).

I even wonder how much helpful RWR/MWS in Ka-50 is anyways? Black Shark is not SAM buster and if you get too close to any radar guided air defences that starts engage you there isnt many things that you can do for saving you're ass.

 

I have a lots of hours spent in A10C that have RWR, MWS and whole bunch of countermeasurements and still it have relatively low survivability in SAM environments. So yeah... as was already said its more about tactics than about MWS.

 

And keep in mind that you have datalink feature in Ka-50...

 

The problem is not that we are missing MWS or any such things. The problem is that we don't have maps that would actually be supporting attack helicopters!

 

KA-50 can't fly as it is suppose to fly! The SAM units with radar or optical targeting are superior to KA-50 only because we don't have trees blocking line of sight and offering cover against missiles etc.

We are flying KA-50 on billiard table and there are just two kind real cover and concealment, ground and buildings.

 

Oh, there is a tree line between you and SAM? Too bad that you cant just fly closer to it while keeping trees between you and SAM and then just pop-up to do quick attacks and return back to cover.

 

We don't need any MWS or RWR if we could use the terrain as we are suppose to be.

Now it is simply that DCSWorld is still like Flanker 2.0 when it comes to air-to-surface and surface-to-air combat. Only air-to-air combat is working 70% as it should, we still like don't have any real simulation for weather and clouds that would block the line of sight to enemy.

 

The Combined Arms module problem is as well exactly the missing terrain physics. A SAM is like sitting duck to A-10C and Su-25T as it can see both coming as long there is no ground or building between them. And same thing is that A-10C and Su-25T has superior upperhand as those can lock to target behind trees, track targets behind trees and fire missiles as well trough trees. And yet we don't even have high risk scenarios where suddenly A-10C or Su-25T pilot would find them to fly in NEZ ambush because their RWR didn't alarm anything because radar unit would have been behind trees on side of forest.

 

The DCSWorld would change radically once Eagle Dynamics is ready to upgrade Black Sea map so it has lots of more trees, every tree is callable and blocks line of sight (radar, IR, laser and cuts wires) and suddenly CA becomes far more enjoyment to play as army isn't going to move through forest in couple minutes but every ground unit really needs to avoid forests as those are for infantry terrain to ambush and destroy everything. So suddenly all the mine dispensers becomes far more useful to block routes, artillery to clear pathways, SAM systems to keep air corridor free from every A-10C and Su-25T and attack helicopters become far more effective because their capability fly as those should.

 

Years back I was very excited after buying KA-50. But after couple evenings I was totally blown away as I had no idea what I was doing totally wrong as I was getting beaten up all the time without any reason.

Until a friend told me that trees don't block anything or offer any cover.

And there was I was applying correct ACM and getting shot down by anything that had max range reach to me. And I felt stupid that I could very well just fly trough forests and not care about those at all, because I had avoided all the trees correctly.

 

It was the moment when the ugly truth hit me hard on the face, that DCSworld is aircraft cockpit simulator, not combat simulator. It is great to simulate how to operate aircraft systems or do some landings etc, but combat is still like in Flanker 2.0.

 

Few months ago I made more serious and careful tests about the AI. As I hated to fly against AI in SP as AI just went vertical almost everytime and then it was easy to shoot down with cannons, no matter what AI used. Then carefully following how ground AI worked and it is very simple, once aircraft flies to given range the AI will spot it, turn weapons at it and engage at another distance.

 

It is just so sad feeling that DCSWorld is called as combat simulator when it doesn't simulate anything realistic behavior and situations. Place couple units behind the hill and fly with KA-50 over the edge and at the moment when the rotors raise above hill edge the AI will respond to you and will even engage you before you spot them.

You can't even make a surprise attacks when AI is cheating by its simple behavior!

 

So the current guides are always "Keep your distance" and "Engage from max range". We can't even use S-8 rockets against any self-defending ground unit as they will kill you faster with 12.7mm than you can with rockets.

Try to pop-up or slide behind building and AI has already fired at you before you can lay your eyes on it.

 

Then go to multiplayer against human players and there are people using wrong tactics because it just works, F-15C and Su-27 flying in mountains 5m from the ground and trying to play hide and seek.

 

DCSWorld has great potential, but before maps gets fixed and AI gets moral, luck and response curves and possibilities, nothing will change toward combat simulator.

[Fri13]

Against radar SAMS flying slow works very well.

They rarely even target me when I'm hovering, surface-to-air threats aren't that bad if you watch where you fly and fly slowly and stealthy, air-to-air threats are the most dangerous IMO

 

And flying speed shouldnt have any effect as you are having a huge reflector above you that is reflecting every radar wave to every direction no matter your attitude or speed. Only way to stay "under the radar" is to fly behind cover that blocks the radar signals. But once your rotor comes to line of sight with any radar, it is like a Christmas tree in middle of night and couple big speakers playing rock'n'roll. Every radar will know that you are there.

 

A helicopter rotor blade tip is traveling almost speed of sound (and kept below it so it wouldn't get pieces by vibrations) and KA-50 has even 6 of those. A normal helicopter design with anti-torque rotor has same thing as well, just even generating more sound but as well own special signature.

 

Seeing a radar screen when helicopter pop-up behind cover is interesting visual as you can not miss it even if you would be half-blind operator.

[rrohde]

+1

 

Points well made, Fri13!