1.5.1.46722.87 Model Visibility removal

[vicx]

a monitor user can see planes 30km away

 

This is a genuine concern BUT you shouldn't use it to try and kill a feature that has utility for people

who either

• can't ZOOM (VR users)
  
• or people who would prefer to use the Visbility feature instead of ZOOMING. I know a lot of WW2 fliers would choose Visbility feature instead of ZOOMING. SA in dogfighting is where Visbility feature instead of ZOOMING makes a lot of sense.
  

 

If you learned DCS with zooming you probably think I don't like these new things. It's OK old timer you can keep your Zoom.

[SharpeXB]

Honestly it seems VR needs to mature more before it's ready for CFS. When it's ready I'm sure I will get one too but I want the "iPhone" version, not the current "Motorolla Brick" ;)

[vicx]

When it's ready I'm sure I will get one too

 

OK as long as you realise that it is impossible to go straight to the iphone. If you let us early adopters of VR (with Oculus Brick and Vive Brick on face) improve the experience in DCS then late adopters like yourself who will wait for iphone_on_face will benefit from our effort.

 

BUT this isn't just about VR ... there are people with monitor_on_table who don't want to use ZOOM. A lot of people want an alternative scheme to zooming that works better for WW2 dogfighting - this is what started the push for a Visibility Feature.

 

As a VR user I am benefiting from the noise the WW2 fliers made over the last year to improve visibility of aircraft when not zoomed in. I thank for them that.

 

Maybe you will thank them too when you use your 4K_iphone_on_face. By then there might be 8K or higher monitors_on_table available ... so you will still have a choice to make based on your personal preferences.

 

Having a choice is what this is about.

[SharpeXB]

BUT this isn't just about VR ... there are people with monitor_on_table who don't want to use ZOOM. A lot of people want an alternative scheme to zooming that works better for WW2 dogfighting - this is what started the push for a Visibility Feature.

 

As a VR user I am benefiting from the noise the WW2 fliers made over the last year to improve visibility of aircraft when not zoomed in. I thank for them that.

Yes, I gather from those discussions that the chief problem some people seem to have in DCS is this lack of understanding how to use that feature. Which is really as vital as turning your head. Why this condition afflicts DCS players and not those in other sims is puzzling. Actually I'm sure DCS players are no different, there's just a certain group of super posters who like to lobby for things. Regardless of how legitimate. It's the nature of these forums.

What's also odd about the WW2 crowd making it an "issue" is that the WW2 planes are the easiest thing to see in this sim. Now Flaming Cliffs is really where a PC monitor is stretched to the limit of playability, with the ranges and speeds involved there.

The trouble with all this is that all it appears to have done is create a new form of icon which will end up just getting disabled in multiplayer so there's no point in using it if you are into playing online.

[vicx]

lack of understanding how to use that feature

 

I don't think people "lacked" an understanding as much as they questioned why zooming must be the only way to spot things. Zooming is your favourite thing in DCS ... that is fine you can keep it.

 

You certainly can't argue that zooming is realistic; all you can say is that it works.

 

Some people made an argument that an alternative to ZOOMING could work just as well and they would actually prefer it. They made a good argument and a BETA version of this feature is now in DCS. Good for them.

 

I think you are assuming that people won't want to play online with the new feature. When this feature gets improved over the next few years I think people will not want to play without it.

 

There are also other possibilities as far as online severs are concerned. Maybe I will only want to fly on servers with other VR pilots. Initially not a lot of players but we will know each other pretty well. You only what the right type of person on a server. Maybe I don't want to fly on a PVP sever against someone with a 4K monitor ... just not the right type of person. :lol:

 

there's just a certain group of super posters who like to lobby for things

 

Sharpe, I think you might be a super poster ... based on quantity.

[SharpeXB]

You certainly can't argue that zooming is realistic

Yes you can

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2550238&postcount=12

It's a very basic concept for all 3D games

[dburne]

Yes you can

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2550238&postcount=12

It's a very basic concept for all 3D games

 

While zooming may be necessary with the limitations of gaming on a monitor, it is far from being realistic.

 

Last time I checked, when I am looking with my eyes at a person walking down the street some distance away from me, I can't tell my eyes to zoom in and see who it is.

:megalol:

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

While zooming may be necessary with the limitations of gaming on a monitor, it is far from being realistic.

 

Last time I checked, when I am looking with my eyes at a person walking down the street some distance away from me, I can't tell my eyes to zoom in and see who it is.

:megalol:

 

I dunno, I knew a gal a year or so back that was 20/5. That was insane.

[OnlyforDCS]

Thats a simulation. Spotting a tank with your eye at 30km isn't realistic. IRL, i can park a tank 5km from you and you wouldn't see it even if i tell you which direction. Its jist turning the game moar easy for a10s.... In mp, ot come down to having some people playing with labels and somewithout.

 

Could you be any more hostile? Why don't you go park that tank somewhere in Real Life and leave those of us who enjoy this new viewing system in peace.

Edited November 11, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[msalama]

Labels etc. have to be a host side option so you can disable them if you so choose. Problem solved innit ;)

[OnlyforDCS]

, there's just a certain group of super posters who like to lobby for things. Regardless of how legitimate. It's the nature of these forums.

 

You mean like the person with the 4K display and 2xTitans in SLI who wants to have all visibility enhancements removed because he can see everything perfectly and everyone else is just cheating?

[dburne]

You mean like the person with the 4K display and 2xTitans in SLI who wants to have all visibility enhancements removed because he can see everything perfectly and everyone else is just cheating?

 

I think he stated not long ago he has not tried 1.5 yet, perhaps he is not aware that model enlargement is an option rather than a requirement. It can be set to off...

 

[OnlyforDCS]

Oh he is aware of it. He has been lobbying against it ever since it was officially announced that ED is working on introducing an enhanced visibility system, way before 1.5 was even released. Most of the people who don't like this system are against it because it ruins the advantage they have at 2K and 4K resolutions over the people who game at 1080p.

[dburne]

Most of the people who don't like this system are against it because it ruins the advantage they have at 2K and 4K resolutions over the people who game at 1080p.

 

I was having trouble understanding this with it being able to be set to off. Not to mention it is still in beta and being tweaked, as evidenced by this last update. Undoubtedly will likely be tweaked some more.

 

I tip my hat at ED for being innovative and trying new things. Not sure how anyone can be against that really.

 

Thanks,

[alfredo_laredo]

 

 

Last night on 104 server with large setting... you got to be joking with this setting tanks around the city are bigger than buildings.

 

Please just make this setting "Server forced" like labels and external views

 

 

If you want to use it for single player, go ahead and have fun.. but for multiplayer in "realistic" servers, please give the option to force "off" this option.

Edited November 11, 2015 by alfredo_laredo

[SharpeXB]

While zooming may be necessary with the limitations of gaming on a monitor, it is far from being realistic.

 

Last time I checked, when I am looking with my eyes at a person walking down the street some distance away from me, I can't tell my eyes to zoom in and see who it is.

:megalol:

There's two issues. One is angular size and the other is resolution. A good example is Euro Truck Simulator. Apparently it does not have a zoom view. So the players need to navigate streets with a GPS instead of just looking at road signs like you can in real life. If there were road signs next to the runway in DCS could you read them? Not without a zoom. Do you think the level of visual acuity you get on a PC sim game would let you pass a drivers eye test? Or qualify as a fighter pilot? Only with a zoom view.

The level of zoom you get in DCS isn't egregious. At 1080p or 4K the farthest away you can see another aircraft is about 10 miles. That's the same range a good pilot could in reality and it's the range the icons appear at.

 

You mean like the person with the 4K display and 2xTitans in SLI who wants to have all visibility enhancements removed because he can see everything perfectly and everyone else is just cheating?

You don't need a 4K screen to see things in these games.

Edited November 11, 2015 by SharpeXB

[xXNightEagleXx]

There's two issues. One is angular size and the other is resolution. A good example is Euro Truck Simulator. Apparently it does not have a zoom view. So the players need to navigate streets with a GPS instead of just looking at road signs like you can in real life. If there were road signs next to the runway in DCS could you read them? Not without a zoom. Do you think the level of visual acuity you get on a PC sim game would let you pass a drivers eye test? Or qualify as a fighter pilot? Only with a zoom view.

The level of zoom you get in DCS isn't egregious. At 1080p or 4K the farthest away you can see another aircraft is about 10 miles. That's the same range a good pilot could in reality and it's the range the icons appear at.

 

SharpeXB do you have 1.5 or previous version?

[OnlyforDCS]

Yeah that is definitely too big. And the settings need tweaking. But do they ruin the fun for anyone but the tanks?? I mean, people who are against this consider this cheating. I for one can't play any of the WWII birds on multiplayer without these options. I've tried, and struggle even in singleplayer, due to my crappy LED 1080p screen and vision problems. If this option is removed, or most of the servers outright ban it, then Ill be forced to play something other than DCS.

[SharpeXB]

SharpeXB do you have 1.5 or previous version?

No I don't do Betas although the one is tempting. Besides like has already been pointed out, I don't have typical hardware so my observation wouldn't be typical either. Plus I've already decided I won't use it anyways because all my other flight sims don't have features like that so why get used to having it?

I'm not really against having a good system in place. But the current one is crazy wrong.

Edited November 11, 2015 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

Oh he is aware of it. He has been lobbying against it ever since it was officially announced that ED is working on introducing an enhanced visibility system, way before 1.5 was even released. Most of the people who don't like this system are against it because it ruins the advantage they have at 2K and 4K resolutions over the people who game at 1080p.

I'm not against every idea. Just the really awful ones like what's in this version right now. It epitomizes everything I was worried about.

Look at that screenshot from the 104th and tell me that's not awful. The previous MV setting didn't seem so bad by comparison.

And it's not about me me me. I don't even play MP that much. I can just switch this off. I'm concerned about the game as a whole.

Edited November 11, 2015 by SharpeXB

[xXNightEagleXx]

No I don't do Betas although the one is tempting. Besides like has already been pointed out, I don't have typical hardware so my observation wouldn't be typical either.

I'm not really against having a good system in place. But the current one is crazy wrong.

 

I just have this to say, so again you take a position (whether pro or cons) for something that you haven't tried like you have done with another Russian game on another forum.......

 

Most people here agree that the system needs to be tweaked, that ED never stated that current visibility is the final stage and, as someone said, tweaks can go back and forth. Besides not everyone is prone to a 4K monitor, I believe that there are a lot of people that would prefer a VR set (with a more acceptable resolution and latency) over a 4K monitor.

So what i'm gathering is that since you are prone to 4K monitor option, visibility enlargement should be banned because it does not fit your desire.

 

First of all, I started this thread to discuss/suggest improvements and not step back to the whole visibility system regardless enlargements or not (that's why I brought the reflection topic to the table). Second, let's remember that ED moved this option to gameplay thus under the server controllable feature, so if you don't like that feature you are free to pick a server where this feature is off (in case you don't find many or the population is low......you might not be 100% correct in your point of view).

Edited November 11, 2015 by xXNightEagleXx

[alfredo_laredo]

Yeah that is definitely too big. And the settings need tweaking. But do they ruin the fun for anyone but the tanks?? I mean, people who are against this consider this cheating. I for one can't play any of the WWII birds on multiplayer without these options. I've tried, and struggle even in singleplayer, due to my crappy LED 1080p screen and vision problems. If this option is removed, or most of the servers outright ban it, then Ill be forced to play something other than DCS.

 

 

I understand your issue, and this setting does work great for you.

 

But this not only affect tanks, also airplanes, and I understand that someone with low resolution and or vision problems, would benefict from this setting as much as my 50 inches 1080 screen helps me.

 

But for me in my current screen size I consider this a cheat from my part. I dont need it and it actually makes the game less fun for me.

 

The problem here is that somebody without vision problems, with a 4K 60 inches screen will want to use the enlargment system as a way to see thing before anyone can do it.

 

And that.. is the definition of cheating.

 

I only ask for server force this out.

 

And I assure you as today there are a few servers with labels on... there will be servers with this setting on. here is another screen from last night 104th

 

 

Those black point are not smoke.. they are actually tanks

[dburne]

I still just don't get it.

 

It is a beta, each build can bring changes to things to be tried. Does not mean the sky is falling by any means. It could very well change again in the next build.

 

Model Visibility is being tested in the beta builds.

Model Visibility is an Option.

 

Don't like model visibility at a specific setting? Choose another setting.

Don't like it at all? Turn it off.

 

I do not currently do MP, but as I understand it especially with it being moved into gameplay options, servers can set this.

[xXNightEagleXx]

I still just don't get it.

 

It is a beta, each build can bring changes to things to be tried. Does not mean the sky is falling by any means. It could very well change again in the next build.

 

Model Visibility is being tested in the beta builds.

Model Visibility is an Option.

 

Don't like model visibility at a specific setting? Choose another setting.

Don't like it at all? Turn it off.

 

I do not currently do MP, but as I understand it especially with it being moved into gameplay options, servers can set this.

 

indeed

[SharpeXB]

Besides not everyone is prone to a 4K monitor, I believe that there are a lot of people that would prefer a VR set (with a more acceptable resolution and latency) over a 4K monitor.

So what i'm gathering is that since you are prone to 4K monitor option, visibility enlargement should be banned because it does not fit your desire.

A 4K monitor is not the giant help in spotting things that you might think it is. It only makes things sharper, not bigger. It doesn't provide any better image quality like better color or contrast. And I have played DCS and other sims for years at 1080p. Most all the opinions I voiced on this topic earlier were when I had 1080p. These sims are pretty much designed to be playable at that resolution. Their graphics and antialiasing and such is tailored for that. If the game does it well, you can very easily spot objects and air targets and such in 1080p.

4K is going to become very popular in the next year or so, just like 1080p is now. But both VR and 4K are extremely demanding, so if you need a hardware upgrade for 4K you'll need almost the same for VR. It's a difference of 4x vs 3x what a 1080p game requires.

Edited November 11, 2015 by SharpeXB