DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[mattebubben]

The no chaff/no flare by default will be interesting. :D

 

 

I know you can mount pods, but if you do an quite risky low level attack to get your BK90s off, who would sacrifice 1 or 2 hard points for chaff/flare, if you only have 4 hard points ?

 

heroic missile evasions will happen ! ))

 

You only need to sacrifice 1 pylon

(as the pod has both Chaff and Flares and it has plenty of it)

 

(you can carry two chaff/flare pods but one has plenty enough)

 

but you also have a jammer pod that you can carry (so if you want both a jammer and chaff pod)

 

but then again having 3 or 4 BK 90s or AGM-65s dont make a massive difference.

Id rather carry 3 and get home then carry 4 and either not getting back to base or not getting all missiles off.

 

And also you have 7 pylons but only 4 are capable of carrying Air-Ground Weapons.

 

(Centerline is for external outer wing pylons are for Air-Air missiles only)

 

But using low level flying and speed should give you a pretty good chance to avoid most missiles.

Edited June 22, 2016 by mattebubben

[Valinor]

Skjold and Valinor, Two Weeks is a joke, originating on other sim forums.

 

Two Weeks = When it's ready aka definitely NOT two weeks.

 

Yes, looks like it :P

[Hummingbird]

Since somebody posted their model, heres my dusty Viggen. This is not a build of mine however, its a simple die cast model.

 

Can't wait to fly this in DCS :joystick:

 

What scale is that? :)

[Skjold]

What scale is that? :)

 

1:72

 

And yeah, countermeasure pod seems like a no brainer for most missions, just wish it could be carried on the central pylon but i doubt it :)

[microvax]

You only need to sacrifice 1 pylon

(as the pod has both Chaff and Flares and it has plenty of it)

 

(you can carry two chaff/flare pods but one has plenty enough)

 

but you also have a jammer pod that you can carry (so if you want both a jammer and chaff pod)

 

but then again having 3 or 4 BK 90s or AGM-65s dont make a massive difference.

Id rather carry 3 and get home then carry 4 and either not getting back to base or not getting all missiles off.

 

And also you have 7 pylons but only 4 are capable of carrying Air-Ground Weapons.

 

(Centerline is for external outer wing pylons are for Air-Air missiles only)

 

But using low level flying and speed should give you a pretty good chance to avoid most missiles.

 

Could we find out so far how many chaff/flares exactly ?

yee... would love to carry jammers, if they actually did anything usefull in DCS! :D

 

Really depends, if you are doing a maniac mission, blueflag standard, into an area where you have 5+ enemy fighters airborne directly over the target, no amount of CM in the world will save you from all the missiles. So there I would take 4 BK90s, salvo fire all of them and simply run. As long as the Enemy is at least disatracted with your own fighters you pretty much get through [mirage experience], without any CM. If there is no friendly CAP in the Air, well, even flying low doesnt preserve you from detection. But in that case, you arent going to defend all the SU27s missiles beeing fired at you, no matter how much chaff or flare you have. :D

I would take a CM pod if you go high alt, makeshift fighter or anything like that, but I guess if one does an BK90 only low level attack, CMs arent going to save you from anything, terrain couldnt save you from. As soon as you load AGM65s I see a point in taking a CM pod, just to have the flares/chaff to defend a long range missile and start running as soon as you fired the AGM65.

 

For any reasonable mission, yeah the CM pod is a no brainer ! ;D

 

Will be really interesting to work out the tactics. :)

 

yeye, i know that the Viggen has 7, but 4 actually usable for a2g. :)

 

Mirage experience tells us, SA3 doesnt fire at you at all, shilka doesnt fire in time either, strelas dont fire in time either. [50-150ft radar alt, Mach 1.01 speed, overflying the targets].

 

Will do more testing in preparation for Viggen.

Do we know in what ripple quantities one can release the 120kg bombs ?

Or is it the same as with the 136mm rockets, pull trigger to fire everything ;D ?

 

EDIT: AIM9s are sufficient countermeasures, just fire counter missile missiles ! )

Edited June 22, 2016 by microvax

[Agremont]

Well, LN said they added ripple quantity settings to the rockets even though it doesn't exist in real life. Maybe they have done the same for bombs.

[microvax]

Well, LN said they added ripple quantity settings to the rockets even though it doesn't exist in real life. Maybe they have done the same for bombs.

 

Gameplay decisions make me go

 

 

Inb4 aim120 support ))))

[mattebubben]

Could we find out so far how many chaff/flares exactly ?

 

Only number ive been able to find is 540 Chaff Packets and 28 Flare Cartridges (each Flare Cartridge having 2 flares so 56 flares total)

 

Thats the only number ive been able to find so far cant say if its 100% correct or not.

 

And as i dont really know how many Chaff packets are launched at a time(or how large each packet is) i dont really know how many chaff discharges one would get.

 

(with the Flares it could either be 2 flares per discharge = 28 discharges or 1 per discharge = 56 but my personal guess would be 2 flares per discharges).

 

But either way you should have enough seeing the procedure was around 1-2 passes and then run for home

(as you should be able to get the ordnance off in 1 or 2 passes).

[microvax]

Only number ive been able to find is 540 Chaff Packets and 28 Flare Cartridges (each Flare Cartridge having 2 flares so 56 flares total)

 

Thats the only number ive been able to find so far cant say if its 100% correct or not.

 

And as i dont really know how many Chaff packets are launched at a time(or how large each packet is) i dont really know how many chaff discharges one would get.

 

(with the Flares it could either be 2 flares per discharge = 28 discharges or 1 per discharge = 56 but my personal guess would be 2 flares per discharges).

 

But either way you should have enough seeing the procedure was around 1-2 passes and then run for home

(as you should be able to get the ordnance off in 1 or 2 passes).

 

ahh cool, thx for le info ! :)

[mattebubben]

Well, LN said they added ripple quantity settings to the rockets even though it doesn't exist in real life. Maybe they have done the same for bombs.

 

Well my understanding is not that they have added Ripple Quantity settings.

 

But rather.

 

The Practice Rockets fire 1 rocket at a time.

 

(and the pods are pretty much the same as far as i can tell)

 

So it should have been possible to wire Real" rockets to fire one at a time as well even if that was never procedure / was never done.

 

My understanding is not that they have added fictional Ripple Quanity Controls.

 

But rather you can either have the Practice Rocket setting of one per press or the live rocket setting of FIRE EVERYTHING!!!.

 

But this is just my understanding of the situation so i could very well be wrong.

Edited June 23, 2016 by mattebubben

[microvax]

Well my understanding is not that they have added Ripple Quantity settings.

 

But rather.

 

The Practice Rockets fire 1 rocket at a time.

 

(and the pods are pretty much the same as far as i can tell)

 

So it should have been possible to launch "Real" rockets one at a time as well even if that was never procedure / was never done.

 

My understanding is not that they have added fictional Ripple Quanity Controls.

 

But rather you can either have the Practice Rocket setting of one per press or the live rocket setting of FIRE EVERYTHING!!!.

 

But this is just my understanding of the situation so i could very well be wrong.

 

Ahh, okay sounds cool. We will have to consult the manual for this ! :smartass:

But again thx for the info ! :)

[amb]

540 chaff and 28 flare seems very heavily biased towards chaff... my best guess is that maybe it was standard practice to more or less continuously dispense chaff while in a hostile zone? As in whenever you are pained by radar you just dispense chaff at a fixed rate all the time?

 

I know the viggen had some sort of auto-system for doing this tied into the RWR, so maybe that's how that worked - as soon as RWR detects something it dispenses chaff at a certain rate, perhaps at a greater rate if locked up? I'm just guessing...

 

While I guess flares would only be used during the attack run itself...?

[Ramsay]

540 chaff and 28 flare seems very heavily biased towards chaff... my best guess is that maybe it was standard practice to more or less continuously dispense chaff while in a hostile zone? As in whenever you are pained by radar you just dispense chaff at a fixed rate all the time?

There's an illustration where one aircraft (of 4) carried jamming and counter measure pods and jam an enemy fleet's radar whilst 3 AJS-37 split off to carry out a 'pop up' attack. The quantity of chaff carried wasn't just for self defence but also part of a EW attack strategy.

 

[amb]

There's an illustration where one aircraft (of 4) carried jamming and counter measure pods and jam an enemy fleet's radar whilst 3 AJS-37 split off to carry out a 'pop up' attack. The quantity of chaff carried wasn't just for self defence but also part of a EW attack strategy.

 

 

Thanks! That's really interesting...

 

So am I interpreting this correctly when I say that the strategy here is to let the ships see your flight of 4, but then at the same time as 3 of them breaks of (and dives below the radar I presume), the 4th on starts dispensing chaff and the chaff will make it sort of look like there's still multiple aircraft in that flight (chaff creating the false signatures), so the ships will (hopefully) think the attack is coming from one direction but then suddenly the 3-flight pops up from another direction and launches. Is that about it?

 

Pretty cool if so... I just wonder what kind of benefit this would give, I know nothing about naval maneuvers/tactics but a wild guess would be that perhaps ships will form up a certain way to defend against an attack from a certain direction, so putting the ships with the strongest countermeasure- and AA-systems in front and keeping the ships you want to protect in the rear? So this would be a nice move around that then... just guessing wildly though

 

Too bad you can't use chaff in this way in DCS, to create false radar signatures I mean.

[mattebubben]

540 chaff and 28 flare seems very heavily biased towards chaff... my best guess is that maybe it was standard practice to more or less continuously dispense chaff while in a hostile zone? As in whenever you are pained by radar you just dispense chaff at a fixed rate all the time?

 

I know the viggen had some sort of auto-system for doing this tied into the RWR, so maybe that's how that worked - as soon as RWR detects something it dispenses chaff at a certain rate, perhaps at a greater rate if locked up? I'm just guessing...

 

While I guess flares would only be used during the attack run itself...?

 

Correction 56 flares (but 26 Cartridges with 2 flares in each cartridge)

 

And also while we know of many Chaff packets (if these numbers are accurate)

 

i could not find anything how how many Chaff packets are released at a time.

 

1 at a time or 2 at a time of 5 at a time.

 

since that makes a Huge difference in how long it lasts and how many time you can release chaff.

[Ramsay]

I don't read Swedish, but if I've interpreted what's been shared correctly - there's more than one thing going on in the diagram.

 

• 
  
• The attack group approach at low level.
  
• Three aircraft stay low and split off
  
• The lone aircraft pops up at a range to acquire the target visually
  and perhaps, starts jamming and dropping chaff if necessary: Program 1: 45s continuous, Program 3 (10% Mode 1): 8 minutes, etc.
  
• the lone aircraft gives target updates to (datalink ?) to the others
  
• who then attack on a different/unexpected vector.
  

The point being, jamming and counter measure pods weren't equipped to all aircraft, they were very situational and their use part of a 'team' strategy.

[Ramsay]

If I recall correctly that's actually showing radar assisted dropping of illumination bombs with target track prediction, the three-ship breaks off to attack the ship once illuminated.

You are probably correct, I haven't seen any other attacks where the attacking aircraft would over fly their target. Night seems a reasoned exception. Thanks

[Ramsay]

And also while we know of many Chaff packets (if these numbers are accurate)

 

i could not find anything how how many Chaff packets are released at a time.

 

1 at a time or 2 at a time of 5 at a time.

 

since that makes a Huge difference in how long it lasts and how many time you can release chaff.

You may have missed BravoYankee4's translation for the dispenser pod KB in post #1031

 

• 
  
• Program 1: the chaffs will be dispensed at a high speed. Total dispensing time approximately 45 seconds.
  
• Program 2: the chaffs will be dispensed intermittently (2 seconds off, 2 seconds on) at a high speed. The timings can be configured in the POD electronics panel by the ground crew. Total dispensing time approximately 90 seconds.
  
• Program 3: low speed (approximately 10% of the speed in Program 1). Total dispensing time approximately 8 minutes.
  
• Program 4: the chaffs will be dispensed at a low speed (approximately 10% of the speed in Program 1). If any of the self protection programs (P1-P3) is initiated during the chaff path deployment it will be aborted, and has to be restarted. Total dispensing time approximately 8 minutes.
  

Edited June 23, 2016 by Ramsay

[MBot]

I assume the large quantity is intended to lay chaff corridors for other aircraft to exploit.

[mattebubben]

BravoYankee4 translated the dispenser pod KB in this post

• Program 1: the chaffs will be dispensed at a high speed. Total dispensing time approximately 45 seconds.
  
• Program 2: the chaffs will be dispensed intermittently (2 seconds off, 2 seconds on) at a high speed. The timings can be configured in the POD electronics panel by the ground crew. Total dispensing time approximately 90 seconds.
  
• Program 3: low speed (approximately 10% of the speed in Program 1). Total dispensing time approximately 8 minutes.
  
• Program 4: the chaffs will be dispensed at a low speed (approximately 10% of the speed in Program 1). If any of the self protection programs (P1-P3) is initiated during the chaff path deployment it will be aborted, and has to be restarted. Total dispensing time approximately 8 minutes.
  

 

Sure (and i have read that part of the manual)

 

But i was thinking more that we dont know how many packets are released at once.

 

So we dont know how many groups of chaff you can dispense before you run out.

 

That part of the Manual only tells the time it takes depending on which of the automated settings is used.

 

So it does not really give any hints on how many Manual Chaff releases you can do before the Pod is empty.

 

That part of the manual was more about the Automatic Countermeasure System / Settings then it was about the specifics off the pod etc.

Edited June 23, 2016 by mattebubben

[mattebubben]

And also another thing to note.

 

That the use of these kinds of Countermeassure pods was not uncommon for strike aircraft during this time period.

 

For example the Panavia Tornado (Strike and ECM variants)

(Germany,Britain and Italy) All used a Countermeassure pod that is the continuation of the Pod carried by the Viggen.

 

So giving up a Pylon for a dedicated Countermeasure pod was not all that uncommon.

 

It was just less of a issue for the Tornado as you had a few more pylons so all aircraft could carry one without loosing armament (as the Tornado is a larger aircraft)

 

Where as for the Viggen they adapted the tactics so not all aircraft would need to carry a pod.

Edited June 23, 2016 by mattebubben

[MBot]

Also for comparison, in Vietnam Phantoms have been carrying chaff pods to lay chaff corridors into the target area for strike packages to safely pass through.

[mattebubben]

Sadly these Tactics of using Chaff does not apply or work in DCS =(.

 

As chaff works in a very simplistic way.

[El Hadji]

Not sure if this has been posted in this thread before but it is a interesting read about a dramatic event over the Baltic sea during the Cold War involving a SH37 and a Soviet Su-15.

 

[ame]http://www.flygtorget.se/illustrationer/fil_20110110093819.pdf[/ame]

 

Short summary

 

In July 1985 a unarmed SH37 (recon version) was sent out from F13 to monitor a Soviet naval exercise just outside the Soviet territorial line. Two Su-15F's were sent out from Vainode in Latvia as a "welcoming party". The Viggen pilot identified one of the Su's as "Yellow 36" and took a picture of it with his camera while the other Su flew at a distance.

 

Since the area to cover was large, the pilot decided to head back to base and broke away from the Soviet aircraft. After refueling he headed back out. Since he didn't want company this time he flew without using radios or radar at 150m altitude. At 1800 hours he did a "radar push" towards Liepaja and Swedish STRIL informed him that Soviet aircraft had taken off from Vainode once again. He was flying too low and too far away from Sweden for direct communication but he had JA37's at high altitude close to Gotland as cover and they relayed the message: "fighters from NE, distance 50km".

 

After a few minutes he discovered the fighters and noticed that it was the same planes as earlier that day. But this time "Yellow 36" stayed at a distance and the other plane closed in on his tail. The pilot, Larsson said "we did some turning but then I needed some space to work so I decided the dance was over".

 

The Soviet plane followed approx 50 meters behind the SH37 when Larsson performed a half-roll at 500 m altitude towards the surface at a speed of 550-700 km/h and with high G. At 100 meters as he pulled out of the maneuver, Larsson was surprised to see that the Soviet pilot had followed him through the roll instead of realising that a fully loaded Su-15 couldn't outmaneuver a basically empty Viggen. The Soviet pilot was unable to recover and splashed into the Baltic sea in a huge fireball. No signs of a ejection were noted. Larsson then decided to abort the mission, turned on the afterburner and headed for home. Sweden later monitored Soviet surface vessels and aircraft in the crash area for several hours before they aparently aborted. The Soviet Su-15F pilot, belonging to 54 GvIAP in Vainode, was most likely killed during this incident.

 

There were no official comments from either The USSR to Sweden or vice versa after the incident. A Swedish report concluded that Larsson had done nothing wrong.

 

The Cold War was pretty cold at times...

Edited June 23, 2016 by El Hadji

[renhanxue]

In the interest of not losing things in translation, a "halv roll" (half roll) is better known in English as a split S.