Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[SDsc0rch]

second post still valid

 

 

i have no problem whatsoever with chaff being effective against a look-up tgt

 

for the reasons that the second post explains

[Nedum]

But that's not the problem alone!

As soon as the missile can "see" the chaff, the missile try to follow the chaff even the RADAR never lost the tracking of the targeted plane and this is BS.

Till today I never heard any good logical explanation why a missile, which needs till the impact full base RADAR guidance, rides her own “wave” if any chaff is in the air. And why is the 120B/C series not affected in this way as long as the RADAR guidance is needed? Perhaps the 120B/C series is “cheating”; the self-guidance is always active and as soon the chaff bug try to fool the 120B/C series the plane RADAR isn’t really necessary anymore even it should?

As long as the chaff is behind the target and mostly off sight of the missile view there is no chaff tracking. That's the reason why look up has the best success.

And here is the other problem of the advanced missile model of DCS. The EXTREME drag for missiles in “thick” air. A few moments after you get your lock in look up position you can also fire a R73. The range for BVR missiles becomes not much bigger as the ones for the “dogfight”.

TacView shows this behavior extreme good.

Nitpicking (… but look up is good…) will not help anyone to fix a huge problem, so please stay on target!

Thank you Sir!

Edited January 4, 2016 by Nedum

[OldE24]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=157955

[D4n]

One thing that I still wonder if realistic in DCS, if AIM-120C come exactly 180° from the 6 a clock, and you drop lots of chaff, theoretically the AIM-120C SHOULD not be able to "watch" through the chaff and detonate on the chaff... correct?

[GGTharos]

I wonder if it's realistic in DCS that your chaff doesn't float downwards like the real deal ;)

[*Rage*]

One thing that I still wonder if realistic in DCS, if AIM-120C come exactly 180° from the 6 a clock, and you drop lots of chaff, theoretically the AIM-120C SHOULD not be able to "watch" through the chaff and detonate on the chaff... correct?

 

Interesting question. Depending on the 120 trajectory a dive or climb at the same time as releasing chaff could put an impenetrable cloud in its LOS.

[GGTharos]

Not from a fighter.

 

In any case, simple solution is to recognize the chaff (doppler rejection), program the fuze to ignore that, and hope to find the bandit on the other side.

 

Now the bandit can stay there ... or turn. And face the next missile.

 

In any case, no RF missiles fuze on chaff in this game. There isn't even an RF/optical fuze distinction.

[SDsc0rch]

... There isn't even an RF/optical fuze distinction.

 

sounds to me like there's room for improvement

[D4n]

... impenetrable cloud ...

... is what I'm talking about. :D (rhymes lol)

 

So, 100 % confident that this IS "modelled" in DCS missile chaff-CM-physics? (Else I'd be willing to test it with sb. tomorrow...)

 

 

In any case, simple solution is to recognize the chaff (doppler rejection), program the fuze to ignore that, and hope to find the bandit on the other side.

 

But, won't the AMRAAM seeker/missile be damaged by hitting the chaff with Mach 1.5-2.0 ? Or would the missile fly over the chaff and then continue intercepting the target? (in real life, would be also nice if programmed into DCS)

 

Now the bandit can stay there ... or turn. And face the next missile

 

Or escape...

Edited January 7, 2016 by DanielNL

[Sweep]

^I don't think so, I think it's been said that the seeker "sees" chaff in the LoS and rolls the dice on what it wants to track.

 

Physics physics physics..........or their (somewhat) less (development) time-intensive equivalents. Edit: Or maybe its not a time thing, I don't know...I'd expect GG or somebody of the type to explain/correct that...

 

He said something about chaff modeling in the ER thread that stuck with me, apparently what we have is basically how it works, but just less technically in depth or something.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Sweep
food for thought

[D4n]

Ok. Finally took time to find/locate the missles_data.lua (in \Config\Weapons), translated the stuff from R-77, AIM-120C and R-27ET with Google (not all correct, russians pls help correcting the translation mistakes) and here I post it (attachment). If u wish other missiles to be added, do it yourself or just ask me. ;)

 

Questions:

-Why is "calculation of flight time" on R-77 = "52.0" and AIM-120C = "70.0" ? What does that value do exactly?

 

-What is "Dogon" ? (A russian entity? Value?)

 

-What is DLZ ?

[red_coreSix]

DLZ is "dynamic launch zone", the rest I don't know.

[TheJay15]

Simple question

 

Ok before I ask this please God do not turn this into another "missile" thread I just want to ask a question.

 

Now that thats out of the way I've just been having thins question that no one has given me a real answer to so I suppose I should probably ask it here. I was simply wondering if there has been any indication that ED is looking at missile flight "stuff" as of the newer patches or are they focusing on more pressing matters ATM?

 

Ever since I became aware of the missile "problems" a few days ago (I'm newish to DCS) it has been eating away at the back of my mind. I just really wanted to know what the whole current situation is to set myself at ease so I can go back to dropping Eagles in the Su-27.

Edited January 23, 2016 by TheJay15
felt the need to mention the glorious su27

[Frostie]

BVR all boiling down to the roll of a dice is ugly, any BVR skill that was prevalent in FC is lost so now any random player can win any engagement because luck is the overriding factor. Fortunately for those with an AIM-120C this luck factor is tiny compared to the rest of the weapon choices which have an extremely high proportion of luck involved, but they still have to put up with the crazy PN logic etc.

 

This countermeasure business combined with woeful tracking and intercept paths is so unbecoming of a lesson/simulation in BVR.

 

A degree of luck is fair enough but when it runs the show it doesn't lie well. If a bandit is in a bad positon 10 km from you which you engage he shouldn't have more chance of turning into you firing and escaping than he does in actually getting hit by your missile then something is terribly wrong.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Frostie

[D4n]

BVR all boiling down to the roll of a dice is ugly, any BVR skill that was prevalent in FC is lost so now any random player can win any engagement because luck is the overriding factor. Fortunately for those with an AIM-120C this luck factor is tiny compared to the rest of the weapon choices which have an extremely high proportion of luck involved, but they still have to put up with the crazy PN logic etc.

 

This countermeasure business combined with woeful tracking and intercept paths is so unbecoming of a lesson/simulation in BVR.

 

A degree of luck is fair enough but when it runs the show it doesn't lie well. If a bandit is in a bad positon 10 km from you which you engage he shouldn't have more chance of turning into you firing and escaping than he does in actually getting hit by your missile then something is terribly wrong.

 

What's "PN logic" ?

[SDsc0rch]

he just wants 100% success for his missiles

 

no "roll of the dice" at all...

[Frostie]

What's "PN logic" ?

The guidance of the missile.

 

he just wants 100% success for his missiles

 

no "roll of the dice" at all...

 

Yes exactly what I said :idiot:

Ask for a pm and i'll explain in basic terms.

[GGTharos]

What's "PN logic" ?

 

Proportional navigation. Wikipedia should have a pretty good explanation of it.

 

Most RL A2A missiles use PN in some form.

 

Not to be confused with proportional steering vs for example bang bang steering.