Su-27 vs. MiG-29S

[Belphe]

During the last couple of days I've been trying to learn the secrets of the Su-27, with my friend training in the MiG-29S. As far as I know the latter has a simplified flight model but still I couldn't believe how easily the MiG outmanoeuvres the Sukhoi! It seems to me that all the MiG pilot has to do is to pull the stick all the way back and enjoy the tightest turns maintaining glorious accelerations.. Even the "magic S-button" doesn't provide enough edge over the incredible agility of the Fulcrum.

 

I've read a few articles about these two aircraft over the years and always had the Flanker for a winner in a potential (and unrealistic) dogfight with guns only. However, I find it very difficult to keep up with this machine when following it and nearly impossible to break his lock when he's on my six.

 

I am no ace but I know how to fly.. I try maintaining my energy, I exchange kinetics into alt and vice versa, I'm manoeuvring "according to the book", I use flaps and try to surprise him with turning the Direct Control on/off. Unfortunately, all this is still not enough.. :/ We both started flying these two jets two weeks ago, for roughly 3 - 4 hours a day... Is my friend a genius or is there something wrong with the FMs of either of these fine machines?

Edited December 23, 2015 by Belphe

[GGTharos]

He's outmaneuvering you, not the flanker. Yes, the flanker with the afm requires much more attention to detail and flight characteristics on your part, much more pre-planning. So he has the advantage of care free flight, but performance should be similar ... As long as you mind it carefully.

 

One significant advantage you do get in the SFM is the ability to point the noise at low speed. With SFM is quite the capability that wouldn't realistically exist, so if you plan on making both of you slow, try to make sure he's not pointed in your general direction at the end of it.

Edited December 23, 2015 by GGTharos

[Sweep]

Try this (assuming he's doing level turns): Put your lift vector on him, and do a max rate pull at about 700Km/H IAS.

 

See who wins THAT fight.

 

(Hint: The Flanker will win, it has a 2-4 degree per second rate advantage at SL. Assuming half fuel)

[rrohde]

SFM vs PFM is always a shoddy comparison, as the SFM is highly simpliefied and thus "can do more" what you cannot do in an PFM/AFM aircraft. According to Yo-Yo, we will get an Mig-29 PFM after the Spiftire is out. That's something to look forward to. :)

Edited December 23, 2015 by rrohde

[GGTharos]

It's really not shoddy at all. The SFM has an advantage in carefree handling and high AoA handling generally.

[rrohde]

It's really not shoddy at all. The SFM has an advantage in carefree handling and high AoA handling generally.

 

That's the shoddy (i.e., unrealistic) part. ;)

[GGTharos]

No it really isn't. You account for it and deal with it, like you would in RL ;)

[Bushmanni]

Weight and in this case (assuming both aircrafts are clean) fuel weight makes a big impact on turning ability. If you have both planes at 100% the Flanker will lose without a doubt as it has internal fuel tanks that hold extra fuel worth of several external tanks in other planes. Set the fuel amount so that both planes can fly about the same time in afterburner and see what happens then.

[ShuRugal]

Weight and in this case (assuming both aircrafts are clean) fuel weight makes a big impact on turning ability. If you have both planes at 100% the Flanker will lose without a doubt as it has internal fuel tanks that hold extra fuel worth of several external tanks in other planes. Set the fuel amount so that both planes can fly about the same time in afterburner and see what happens then.

 

This. The fuel capacity of the Flanker (9.4 metric tons) is almost the dry weight of the Fulcrum (11 metric tons). at maximum takeoff weights, the MiG is 20 tons, and the flanker is 30.

 

Next time you fly against your friend, takeoff with 60-70% fuel (adjust as needed so you meet him around 55%) and, as another poster said, maintain ~700 km/hr IAS for the turning fight.

[Belphe]

Thanks all for help! Testing will continue tonight with the new tactics... ;)

[Stuge]

It's really not shoddy at all. The SFM has an advantage in carefree handling and high AoA handling generally.

 

But still, Su-27 can maintain a stable 40+ degrees AoA in level flight, 30-40 in sustained turns and 70+ momentarily (Cobra or similar move). All while the Mig is limited to below 30 degrees AoA.

[Belphe]

Put your lift vector on him, and do a max rate pull at about 700Km/H IAS.

 

:huh: I do apologize but what does "putting the lift vector on the enemy aircraft" mean exactly? :(

[Brisse]

:huh: I do apologize but what does "putting the lift vector on the enemy aircraft" mean exactly? :(

 

A vector is the direction of a force. In this case we are talking about the force that is created by the lift of the wings. It goes roughly straight up into the sky if you are flying level with the horizon.

[*Rage*]

Once you get a little lighter you can sustain turn him to death at 550km:)

[Brisse]

Just to give people an idea of how much fuel the Su-27 carries:

It's fuel capacity is 9400kg

The total weight of a loaded JAS-39C Gripen is 8500kg.

 

The Su-27 was designed to be used without external drop tanks, so it carries an enormous amount of internal fuel. Of course it's going to be a bit sluggish if you fill all tanks 100%.

 

It's better to fill it only to the point where it has the same range as the aircraft you are comparing it to.

[Belphe]

Ahh, thats it! Thank you for your time, patience and please forgive me my lack of knowledge.. It's not ignorance! :)

[Sweep]

:huh: I do apologize but what does "putting the lift vector on the enemy aircraft" mean exactly? :(

 

Imagine a line sticking out through the top of your aircraft...that's the lift vector. The attached PDF might be helpful in explaining some of that.

 

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/aetc/publication/aetcttp11-1/aetcttp11-1.pdf

[Belphe]

Imagine a line sticking out through the top of your aircraft...that's the lift vector. The attached PDF might be helpful in explaining some of that.

 

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/aetc/publication/aetcttp11-1/aetcttp11-1.pdf

 

Amazing - thank you!

[ShuRugal]

Ahh, thats it! Thank you for your time, patience and please forgive me my lack of knowledge.. It's not ignorance! :)

 

erm?

 

ig·no·rance

ˈiɡnərəns/

noun

lack of knowledge or information.

[Sweep]

erm?

 

:megalol: :megalol:

 

lol

[rami80]

But still, Su-27 can maintain a stable 40+ degrees AoA in level flight, 30-40 in sustained turns and 70+ momentarily (Cobra or similar move). All while the Mig is limited to below 30 degrees AoA.

 

30 deg aoa in turns? Can you please post a track of this. I could not replicate that.

[OnlyforDCS]

Im always surprised with how well the Su27 handles in turns, even fully fueled and armed. I never even need to watch the AoA gauge, I mostly fly it by feel. I think a lot of it has to do with the FFB implementation in the Flanker which is so far the best Ive seen in any of the DCS jets. (Apart from maybe the L39C)

[Stuge]

30 deg aoa in turns? Can you please post a track of this. I could not replicate that.

 

You need to use direct control to exceed 30.. i can post track later when theres time.. merry christmas :)