How to correctly employ the IRST, remain "invisible" and perform a "stealth kill"?

[Belphe]

Hi,

 

This is the training mission I made and practised with for a few days now.

 

My Plane:

• 1x Su-27S Flanker E
  

 

My Loadout:

• 2x ECM
  
• 2x R73
  
• 2x R27ET
  

 

Enemy:

• 2x F-15C Eagle
  

 

Enemy Loadout:

• 4x AIM-9M Sidewinder (each)
  
• 1x Fuel Tank (each)
  

 

Distance:

• 200km
  

 

Expected Encounter Altitude:

• 4,000m
  

 

-----------------------------------------

 

I take off, climb to 4k and turn towards the waypoint. "Beryoza" informs me of enemy presence on my 12 o'clock straight away. I enable my radar and set it to HI aspect, 150km expected enemy range and no elevation difference. My HDD is set to show 200km ahead of me. At a distance of 120km my radar picks up two bandits. I switch to TWS and focus the closer bandit. I turn off the autopilot, increase power (no afterburners), turn towards the enemy (7 degrees right) and start climbing to 6,000m. My weapon of choice is R27ET and as soon as the closer bandit gets within range I attempt to switch to IRST. However, the contact is lost and I need to get back to my radar. I repeat this process but I get hit by enemy missiles shortly after...

 

Here are my questions:

1. What is the estimated range to target I need to achieve to be able to switch to IRST and not to worry I'll loose the contact (perfect clear sky)?

2. Will locking the bandit with active radar first (STT) and then switching to IRST keep him alerted? Will his RWR continue to alert him of the lock even after I start tracking him with IRST?

3. Should I swith the radar off when certain to acquire the lock with IRST before to gain more stealth?

 

Apparently, the Su-27 was created to counter the F-15C but so far, even giving the enemy "only" the AIM-9M Sidewinder and being able to use the longer ranged R27ET I am struggling to be at least competitive (I was killed in 3 out of the 4 scenarios I described above).

 

Please, help me analyse my mistakes and point them out to me.

 

Thank you and Merry Christmas! :)

Edited December 25, 2015 by Belphe

[0xDEADBEEF]

I don't really get what you are trying to do. If with your radar off, at 6000m the f15s will easily see you on their radar. What I would do is turn on radar and draw a picture for yourself, remember where they fly, which heading and speed. Then dive for some hills and mask. This is the only way not to be seen by F15s. Pop up for short timespans to check if the picture in your head is still valid (if necessary) while maneuvering around the F15s. This way you can pop back up anywhere between their 3-9 line and 6 oclock. Send them an ET when you are in range and they will go down without even noticing whats going on.

 

Keep in mind that by not using your Radar you will not pop up on ther RWR, you will still pop up on your radar (your RWR will warn you about this).

[srky]

Turning your radar off will not change anything because they know already where you are (as indicated by your Beryoza) so you can forget about stealth.

[Stuge]

Here are my answers:

 

1) IRST detection range depends heavily on whether the target uses afterburner or not. Afterburning targets can be detected very far(tens of kilometers head-on) while non-afterburning target may only show up within 20km. But I don't think this is too relevant to achieving a stealthy approach.

 

2) It might continue to warn the target but this is due to a bug and not supposed to be. But targets within IRST detection range can quite easily be acquired with the vertical scan for example, so breaking the radar lock for a second to do this isn't a big deal.

 

3) For a stealthy approach you should switch radar off long before having a sure IRST lock. Just get a general idea where the enemy is(educated guess, RWR signal or a quick radar sweep), fly in that direction at low altitude, and start IRST scanning (BVR or vertical scan which I prefer). Meanwhile keep an eye on your Beryoza. The Beryoza is your main indicator of whether you've been "busted" and the enemy sees you or not. More than half of Beryoza strength roughly means that you are in danger of being detected. Turn left or right 90 degrees and stay low to beam the target, maybe dive behind a mountain, and disappear from their radar. Once the Beryoza signal disappears, you are probably not being tracked anymore, and can try to resume the stealth approach, or just chicken out and run away. But remember that once Beryoza indicates full strength, the enemy is deadly close and you should fight for your life!

 

Keep in mind that russian enemy jets may detect you with IRST also, so when closing in on a target there's always the possibility that they see you, even if Beryoza is quiet.

 

Oh, and don't try stealth against AI, that doesn't work too well. Instead go on a public server!

[oho]

Do AI have magical eyes (like sending an AI KA50 for recon, he will see everything) so flying very low is not a good idea because they will detect me anyway?

[DarkFire]

Here are my answers:

 

1) IRST detection range depends heavily on whether the target uses afterburner or not. Afterburning targets can be detected very far(tens of kilometers head-on) while non-afterburning target may only show up within 20km. But I don't think this is too relevant to achieving a stealthy approach.

 

2) It might continue to warn the target but this is due to a bug and not supposed to be. But targets within IRST detection range can quite easily be acquired with the vertical scan for example, so breaking the radar lock for a second to do this isn't a big deal.

 

3) For a stealthy approach you should switch radar off long before having a sure IRST lock. Just get a general idea where the enemy is(educated guess, RWR signal or a quick radar sweep), fly in that direction at low altitude, and start IRST scanning (BVR or vertical scan which I prefer). Meanwhile keep an eye on your Beryoza. The Beryoza is your main indicator of whether you've been "busted" and the enemy sees you or not. More than half of Beryoza strength roughly means that you are in danger of being detected. Turn left or right 90 degrees and stay low to beam the target, maybe dive behind a mountain, and disappear from their radar. Once the Beryoza signal disappears, you are probably not being tracked anymore, and can try to resume the stealth approach, or just chicken out and run away. But remember that once Beryoza indicates full strength, the enemy is deadly close and you should fight for your life!

 

Keep in mind that russian enemy jets may detect you with IRST also, so when closing in on a target there's always the possibility that they see you, even if Beryoza is quiet.

 

Oh, and don't try stealth against AI, that doesn't work too well. Instead go on a public server!

 

Agree with all of this. It also helps if your IRST can look up, so that it sees a relatively hot airframe against a relatively cold sky, instead of looking down where it can have problems, especially against a warm ground.

[VampireNZ]

'Dogpiling' apparently

Edited July 12, 2017 by VampireNZ

[probad]

you guys are dogpiling on to an already solved problem, instead of the recent question being piggybacked.

 

the ai is better at finding things than most people, but they're not omniscient and can be snuck up on from rear quarters.

[DarkFire]

you guys are dogpiling on to an already solved problem, instead of the recent question being piggybacked.

 

the ai is better at finding things than most people, but they're not omniscient and can be snuck up on from rear quarters.

 

Oops, just saw the dates of the original posts! That'll teach me to pay attention... :doh:

[WildBillKelsoe]

Look, from an experience, don't try IRST with AI. If you want a true sneak attack, use mountainous regions, radar off, IRST when you're under his nose, pop up and shoot. If you're lucky you might hit something. The AI is upsettingly aware you're borne before you even taxi..

 

If I were to contend with AI, I'd force them to lose their AIM-120s and retain my short range 73 or guns as the killing mechanism.

 

Why I answered a two plus year old Christmas thread? because I don't like others to suffer like me.