Mirage 2000C A2A combat

[mattebubben]

like with everything else it will come down to the pilot.

 

And also very much to keep to areas where you have an advantage or atleast where the enemy has the smallest advantage possible.

 

And once the different Systems for the M-2000 are done such as IFF, Slaving the Magic II to the radar having the Auto lock feature for the Close combat radar mode and improved rwr the M-2000 will the competative as long as you realise its limitations.

 

A smart pilot wont do head on attacks against any of the FC-3 fighters since the Su-27 and F-15 will always have the advantage and the Mig-29 might have a large advantage depending on loadout.

 

Ive been playing alot of Mig-29 Mp latley and limiting the Loadout to R-27R (not ER but just the basic R) together with either just 2 R-73s or 2-73s and 2 R60Ms.

 

And ive had alot of luck staying low and 80% of my kills have been with IR missiles or close range R-27 shots against a running enemy (at close ranges of below 3nm) and usually i rtb with atleast 2 kills and usually having 2 Ir missiles left.

 

The M-2000 should not be much different and should be effective in the low down short range high speed ambushes that usually occur around mountinous areas on the mp servers.

 

So i really dont think the M-2000 will be easy meat in MP aslong as you try to keep to the areas where the enemy has the smallest advantage over you.

[Hook47]

It depends on areas, sustain turn rate have to be improved to stick to the chart.

 

 

 

With corrected Super 530D, thanks to jammer you'll get first shot to put MiG 29A on defensive...

 

I still think even after chart corrections the advantage will be marginal at best, and getting to the merge where any of it matters, and exploiting any of it without killing all energy is a whole new set of challenges.

 

as to the second point, perhaps, but not if the MiG 29 is also jamming, and remember the MiG 29 also gets a Fox 3. And if you do force him defensive, you better make the second missile count because you just burned 50 percent of your BVR on forcing him defensive. And if you are lucky enough to make it to the merge, the 29 holds several important advantages: More ordinance, more thrust, better survivability and the all so important HMD/High off boresight that gets me lots of kills.

 

Also I don't see MiG 29As hardly ever on PVP, I think most people fly the S.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Hook47

[jojo]

That's why I talked about MiG 29A : no jammer, Fox 1 only.

 

MiG 29S with jammer and 4 Fox 3 + 2 Fox 2 have of course the upper hand in weaponry.

 

Plus its flight model is old standard and like FBW MiG 29. With AFM MiG 29 would have more limitations in maneuverability.

 

But I got it: MP players just want the bigger stick. The thing is MiG 29S first flight was 1989, so nobody care it didn't reached front line in significant number and mainly after the end of cold war.

Also when Typhoon will be out you will have a newer & better delta fighter...useless talk here !

Edited December 29, 2015 by jojo

[shagrat]

The thing is, if you go high to increase range then your opponents are also going to get increased range on their missiles when firing at you. It's a two way street. Sure, the high guy gets a bit of an advantage in that situation, but when your opponent (at least in MP) is likely to be an Eagle or Flanker, they're still most likely going to out range you.

I know, that's why I said it is bad idea in my post (you did read the whole post?).

 

As the natural adversary of the Mirage is more the 70ies/80ies MiGs, I was asking for tactics against them, not the Su-27 or F-15C.

[Corsair]

Natural adversaires of the 2000 are MiG-29 or F-16, not third gen MiGs flying trash cans.

Also, if you're loosing at ACM versus Su-27 or F-15, you're doing something terribly wrong.

[shagrat]

Natural adversaires of the 2000 are MiG-29 or F-16, not third gen MiGs flying trash cans.

Also, if you're loosing at ACM versus Su-27 or F-15, you're doing something terribly wrong.

A second line Fighter of 1978 as natural adversary of the mid to late 80ies "Air-Superiority-Fighters"? OK, the Mirage can stand its ground, and it can outmaneuver an F-15C or Su-27, but before that God put the evasion of a barrage of fire-and-forget Missiles with pretty much longer distance than the S530D... So I would rather have an F-15 or Mig-29 with me, as Backup for the BVR jousting.

Well, in the end it all boils down to pilot experience, the right tactic/move at the right moment, and a good load of luck in any plane.

 

As usual I suck at dogfighting, and have to learn and train(!) a lot before I will actually kill anything that moves in a Mirage, but a head on 2 vs. 2 with Mirage vs. Su-27 or Eagles sounds a bit like a "Tough challenge" to me! ;)

[jojo]

Right now it's not performing as it should. But it's first beta release.

 

1978 second line fighter...

what are you talking about ?

 

Mirage 2000 C RDI was fielded in 1986.

 

You are flying a prototype with prototype weapons, but everyone keep making definitive statements.

[Para_Bellum]

I have to say I had a total blast fighting Mig-29 As in the Mirage for a few hours yesterday. Limit the 29s to R-27s and you have a decent setup for a fight.

 

Still struggle to hit with the missiles but boy do these cannons rock! :)

[shagrat]

Right now it's not performing as it should. But it's first beta release.

 

1978 second line fighter...

what are you talking about ?

 

Mirage 2000 C RDI was fielded in 1986.

 

You are flying a prototype with prototype weapons, but everyone keep making definitive statements.

Yep, sorry. Mixed up some dates. 1984 it is.

As I understood it was planned as an Interceptor (intercepting high and fast flying bombers) to protect and patrol airspace. Later A-G capabilities were added. It performs a role similar to the US F-16 or the russian Mig-29. Intercept incoming bombers. Head on BVR against an Air superiority fighter, would be not its primary mission profile?

 

EDIT: I remember where I picked up the 1978 date. It was the approval from the Government...

[jojo]

The design target was to catch high and fast Foxbat...I know it's ambitious, even F-15 struggle to do it. Yet this is why Mirage fly so well at high altitude, and Super 530D was marketed with + 10 000m snap up capacity.

Edited December 30, 2015 by jojo

[tflash]

I find the Mirage to fly well at any altitude. Don't forget the ADLA long flew it as its premier air superiority fighter, and at the hands of Greek pilots it flies tough BFM over the aegean sees for decades. Yes the higher you fly the better its gets, and like in any delta fighter you need to think energy, because it bleeds it off very quicky.

 

But realism in air combat is for me not whether a button or two are correctly modelled, but is to adapt to the fight, to maximize one's own strenghts and exploit the weaknesses of the opponent.

 

So first thing I learned is not to shoot my missiles from too far since the Magic looses speed very rapidly, and not to turn circles but to make sharp, short turns like in a race car. And yes trying to engage an F-15 is not easy but he, we risk nothing behind the keyboard, it is so fun that we can try endlessly until we succeed!

[Cletust8]

In the presence of aim-120 and r-77 you have to stay low and use terrain masking. The "knights of the sky" High altitude approach will just turn you into an AMRAAM catcher's mitt. Take the MiGs approach and ambush from terrain.

[jojo]

Yes, Fox 3 missiles are nightmares at high altitude.

 

But Mirage 2000 C is a cold war fighter. And Fox 3 are post cold war weapons.

 

So massive MP servers where everybody is flying FC3 fighters with perfect IFF and Fox 3 may not be where you will enjoy the M-2000 at its full potential.

 

Just saying...

[Cletust8]

'80s servers such as Blue Flag would be ideal.

[LFCChameleon_Silk]

AI F-16 really challenging, dead if you get to merge though.

 

I find MiG-21 loaded up with missiles and overmatched makes for the most fun though.

[Whuping]

[it's pretty long reply, but I've attempted to construct it so it answers the OP's question and anyone who views the topic - who knows maybe learn a couple thing or two.]

 

There are various circumstances when it comes to engaging from a distance or force your opponent to fight in your most dangerous territory - a Turn Fight.

 

In order to get to those advantageous situations you must first prepare. What load are you carrying? 2x Supers - 2x Magic and a Tank? Are you carrying a mix of AA to AG armaments? But to make it simple you're carrying 2x Supers and 2x Magics - standard AA armament. The only standard anyways.

 

As you may notice underneath the landing gear lights next to the FBW Disconnect switch (colored with a red cover switch) is a FBW G limiter.

 

This is a very important switch.

 

It controls exactly how much you can force your plane to turn and how much your pilot can experience G-Force. AA is Switch up and AG is switch down - it corresponds directly to the weapon load out you have on your aircraft. AA you can exert a tighter turn than a switch on AG - for them dive bombings and what not.

 

Currently the systems on the Mirage aren't that reliable. Magics take too long to lock and Supers lose their hard lock for various reasons. It boils down to getting in there and shooting down your opponent. The manly way.

 

So firstly - your longest range weapon is your best weapon, the Supers. Technically they go out on an average of 13-15 NM, but their 80% kill range is usually 3-5nm (From personal experience). You spend most of your time on the Mirage looking at the Radar - 20 nautical mile scan with standard degrees and 1 bar scan. To scan who's heading towards you or away from you or what is a real target from a jamming target you do a soft lock. They get no tone warning - nada. Perfectly safe. This allows you to zoom in there and prepare for your attack - like a Falcon diving on an unsuspecting prey. (Unless its an F-15 or an aircraft that already knows your there.)

 

Always make sure you clear your Radar Lock to make sure other radar signatures pop up on your screen. I've made the mistake many times and wonder why I'm not seeing anything on Radar - it's because I've locked onto a Jamming Target and forgot to release it. On the bottom right of your Radar Screen you get a PID and PIC to indicate that you've locked onto something. If you don't have an aspect of the target then its obviously a jamming target and you're wasting your time.

 

So once you're closing in on your target with Supers ready - you're in around 7 - 6NM. You have the choice to scare your opponent or make him/her nervous. Once you hard-lock they know that you're there and they will turn into you. Firing first is sometimes the best option. Someone once told me that missiles still on your pylons are missiles going to waste. So fire all of them if you wish lmao (not advisable).

 

You may or may not lose lock, but let's just say you did. That sucks. But now the Target is 3-4NM. This is the kill zone if you don't lose a hard lock at all which is a miracle. With the switch on AA - your nose is on the target 100% of the time guaranteed. I would know cause its amazing. No matter how hard they turn or flip or burn - you're right behind them. (Unless you blacked out.) And now you have the black screen of shame.

 

So if you manage to get close enough and not lose lock - perfect. You got a kill with a Super.

 

Now for Magic Missiles its a different story. They are like the R-60's, but a very terrible R-60. It's like shooting a missile and it deploys its tiny invisible drag chutes or missiles that one of your ground mechanics forgot to clean the IR lenses. It's horrible.

 

These missiles are used for turn fights or a target coming towards you, but never for a target flying away (Unless you are like within' 1nm - then that's a kill.). It loses speed. FAST.

 

So how to use them to its optimum potency? There's a magical mode called the CLOSE AIR COMBAT MODE. CAC for short ("V" Key). It comes in three modes - you got a dash line going horizontal (Your target must be within' the dash line). The second mode is a parentheses with a cross in the middle (Boresight mode - your target goes inside this). The third is a Vertical line (Your target must be within' the dash line). From here you lock your target and pray that you don't lose lock. They may assist in getting a lock, sometimes they don't. (as far as I've noticed they just helped me not lose my target when they fly low - at times I got an easy lock - sometimes not. It's iffy.)

 

From here you get the tone. You will get either a second circle in your already big circle and a TIR in the middle. This is like saying you better fire or you'll regret it scrub in French or something. (It just means that your target is in the kill zone so let it rip.) Usually you'll get a giant X saying don't fire. It's kinda like mocking you to shoot, but you won't cause you'll miss. But once you do get the clearance to fire - then take the chance (I mean you could release whenever, but it's more of like an assurance kinda thing.) Essentially it's just saying that you're pulling too much G's and your missiles when released are just going to be wasted.

For me I usually release my Magics once I can see the wings clearly or the canopy of the enemy aircraft. It's really close, but I've gotten kills around 2-3nm and it was usually when I'm in a Turn Fight where I fight best. It's a fire and forget missile so you don't have to worry anything about keeping a hard lock. It's an IR missile after all.

 

 

On a defensive note - Fly low. Fly where the mountains are. Conceal yourself - pop up only when you're gonna do a brief search and dip. Fly in valleys or canyons. I've fought Mig-21's and they generally aren't quite adept at tracking targets level to them or targets below them. So flying low is generally a good thing against most OPFOR aircrafts (Su-27, Mig-29, Mig-21, Su-25).

 

Against a F-15 then it's a different story. SPAM RAMS coming your way. I haven't found a way to counter a F-15. If its a good pilot then he'll/she'll keep distance. Once a Mirage get's close then the F-15 is good as dead. F-15 can't turn if its life depends on it. I've read and watched videos that you'll have to fly high, if not higher, than the F-15 itself.

 

Against missiles - I've found releasing counter measures while cranking upwards was a decent way to lose IR missiles. Doing a barrel roll was also a decent way to lose Radar Guided missiles, but the 100% best defensive method was to not let the enemy get the opportunity to fire first. Never let them get on your six.

 

Very Helpful Source by Mr. Chuck :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-uSpZROuEd3WnVhcm5hTUJOTjg/view

Edited December 30, 2015 by Whuping