How to disable MIG29/29S "MFD HUD repeater mode"?

[fitness88]

Without the HDD showing the Enroute waypoints, do any of you miss the ease at knowing where you are relative to your waypoint and/or waypoint line?

[flashben]

I was wondering if the mig29 relied on waypoints, or only used radio navigation.

does it use an INS?

[Ironhand]

I was wondering if the mig29 relied on waypoints, or only used radio navigation.

does it use an INS?

The problem is that the MiG-29

s Navigation Panel isn't animated. Otherwise this would be much less of an issue. They took away the "crutch" before healing the leg.

[Presing]

ED can if they want to. There is upgrade for MiG-29a/s for MFD.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHrQWRez890[/ame]

 

You can see clearly in couple of times in that video that that MiG-29 version. B have multi color MFD.

[fitness88]

The problem is that the MiG-29

s Navigation Panel isn't animated. Otherwise this would be much less of an issue. They took away the "crutch" before healing the leg.

 

LOL...very true!

[EAKMotorsports]

on the first video on page 2 I can see clear the stick is very simple so that MIG29 is definitely more simple MIG, probably Mig29A

[TheFurNinja]

on the first video on page 2 I can see clear the stick is very simple so that MIG29 is definitely more simple MIG, probably Mig29A

 

The first one is a MiG-29UB, which is a twin seat derivative of the MiG-29A. The Polish MiGs I do believe are MiG-29Gs bought from Germany, which are Warsaw Pact MiG-29As.

[Mortifa]

Okay just saw two videos of a person with the HDD not looking like the HUD. How do I do that?

Edited February 5, 2016 by Mortifa

[TheFurNinja]

Okay just saw two videos of a person with the HDD not looking like the HUD. How do I do that?

That looks like the old HDD display from a earlier patch. You can see this on other older Su-27 videos as well. If so that cockpit is from before they removed the "HDD Repeater Switch"

[Mortifa]

Yes it is. I was trying to get it working and found this youtube video [ame=

]

[/ame] where he shows how it is done.

 

Why was it removed?

[TheFurNinja]

Yes it is. I was trying to get it working and found this youtube video

where he shows how it is done.

 

Why was it removed?

It seems that the Su-27 style HDD was not realistic. Every chance I see the MiG-29s HDD all I see is a Heads Down Repeater, no display like one on the Su-27.

 

Here is some more footage from the PAF.

 

2:40, 3:07, and 5:08 shows the HDD as a repeater

 

And some from a MiG-29UB, showing the HDR.

[mattebubben]

Yes it is. I was trying to get it working and found this youtube video

where he shows how it is done.

 

Why was it removed?

 

Because it was unrealistic.

 

The Mig-29A and Mig-29S never had a Datalink display like the SU-27.

 

the Heads down display was only a Hud Repeater.

 

It had no other functions.

 

Thus changed it to make the aircraft accurate / realistic.

[ostheim]

According to this article, the writer explains that the MiG-29 (Im assuming the A variant since the GDR only had those models) had its Laszlo data link and the SRO IFF removed before handing them over to the Luftwaffe.

 

http://www.16va.be/mig-29_experience.htm

[TheFurNinja]

According to this article, the writer explains that the MiG-29 (Im assuming the A variant since the GDR only had those models) had its Laszlo data link and the SRO IFF removed before handing them over to the Luftwaffe.

 

http://www.16va.be/mig-29_experience.htm

While true that the MiG-29 gets a data link, it does not create a new screen on the HDD. Instead it is a special mode on the HUD (repeated in the HDD). Below is the GCI data link screen.

From "http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM%20PICTURES%20&%20DOCS/Overscan's%20guide%20to%20Russian%20Military%20Avionics.htm"

 

"Encounter mode is the main search mode used in interception, as it gives the longest detection ranges and the least false returns.

 

It uses a High PRF mode which can detect closing targets only in the velocity range of 230 - 2500km/h at altitudes from 30m to 23,000m. The display is calibrated to a maximum range of 150km.

 

Target can be up to 10,000m above or 6,000m below the host aircraft's own altitude.

 

A typical 3 sq m RCS fighter target can be detected at 50-70 km and tracked at 40-60 km. If the target is flying below 3,000m reduces the detection range to 40-70 km and tracking range to 30-60km.

 

Two basic scan patterns are used.

 

When the system is under direct GCI control via datalink, a 6 bar elevation raster scan is used. This scan covers a sector of 40° in azimuth at ranges up to 30km, 30° at ranges of 30-55 km, and 20° above 55km within the scan limits given above. The distance to target and other useful information is supplied by GCI command, and the direction of the scan is automatically cued by CGI command towards the desired target."

 

It seems to work by using the LAZUR (Lazslo?) data-link to communicate to get cued on where to fly and where to turn your radar to find the target easiest. It looks like you follow the "GCI Control Mark" like NAV mode and proceed to turn the Radar system to where the target is as cued by the GCI. This is a mode I would love to see on the MiG-29 (and maybe the Su-27 if it came with it).

Edited February 5, 2016 by TheFurNinja

[43rd WFV COBRA]

While true that the MiG-29 gets a data link, it does not create a new screen on the HDD. Instead it is a special mode on the HUD (repeated in the HDD). Below is the GCI data link screen.

From "http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM%20PICTURES%20&%20DOCS/Overscan's%20guide%20to%20Russian%20Military%20Avionics.htm"

 

"Encounter mode is the main search mode used in interception, as it gives the longest detection ranges and the least false returns.

 

It uses a High PRF mode which can detect closing targets only in the velocity range of 230 - 2500km/h at altitudes from 30m to 23,000m. The display is calibrated to a maximum range of 150km.

 

Target can be up to 10,000m above or 6,000m below the host aircraft's own altitude.

 

A typical 3 sq m RCS fighter target can be detected at 50-70 km and tracked at 40-60 km. If the target is flying below 3,000m reduces the detection range to 40-70 km and tracking range to 30-60km.

 

Two basic scan patterns are used.

 

When the system is under direct GCI control via datalink, a 6 bar elevation raster scan is used. This scan covers a sector of 40° in azimuth at ranges up to 30km, 30° at ranges of 30-55 km, and 20° above 55km within the scan limits given above. The distance to target and other useful information is supplied by GCI command, and the direction of the scan is automatically cued by CGI command towards the desired target."

 

It seems to work by using the LAZUR (Lazslo?) data-link to communicate to get cued on where to fly and where to turn your radar to find the target easiest. It looks like you follow the "GCI Control Mark" like NAV mode and proceed to turn the Radar system to where the target is as cued by the GCI. This is a mode I would love to see on the MiG-29 (and maybe the Su-27 if it came with it).

 

Yes , that is exactly how Mig-29A were guided , they see target on hud as WP ( more easy sayed ) data was send to aircraft by mentioned datalink lazur from GCI ( Mig-23MF and ML have it also ) and pilot see range to target , its speed and all needed data.

So sad we dont have something like that here in DCSW .

[Hadwell]

So why even the expense of putting the display in?

 

seems to me, could have just left it out entirely, it's sorta like fake buttons on a boom box to make it look like it has more functionality than it does...

[Zurich]

Necro bump. Hate to do that, but I figure its better than starting a new thread. I have a couple of questions about the Mig29-S radar.

 

1. Why is it that TWS in the Mig29-S can only be used in a non-jamming environment? I know they are different systems, but shouldn't it operate somewhat similarly to the F15 TWS? Where you can still use TWS, but a jammer strobe still emits onto it? What is the point of TWS, then if it cannot be used in an ECM environment?

 

2. This one puzzles me the most. According to this: http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig29/mig29-n019-radar/

The Mig29-S, which has the N019 radar, has the ability to passivly launch R-77's, much the same way the F15 does in TWS.

 

From the source

In Track While Flyby Mode:

"Track-while-flyby mode is intended to allow missile launch at maximum range with minimal warning to the target, by switching to single target tracking mode as late as possible."

 

But in game, the R77 immediately (I am assuming) goes pitbull and uses its own radar to track, even while in Track While Flyby (TWS) mode, which therefore gives your target a missile launch warning.

 

According to that, it should behave similarly to the AMRAAM in that regard, should it not?

 

Thanks for the advice!

Edited April 19, 2016 by Zurich

[Seaeagle]

Necro bump. Hate to do that, but I figure its better than starting a new thread. I have a couple of questions about the Mig29-S radar.

 

1. Why is it that TWS in the Mig29-S can only be used in a non-jamming environment? I know they are different systems, but shouldn't it operate somewhat similarly to the F15 TWS? Where you can still use TWS, but a jammer strobe still emits onto it? What is the point of TWS, then if it cannot be used in an ECM environment?

 

The N019's SNP(TWS) mode is said to be quite vulnerable to ECM - probably due to processing limitations. Anyway, the F-15's APG-63 radar has a lot in its "toolbox" - various specialised modes and features for all sorts of situations, so you cannot assume that capabilities are similar just because both have a TWS mode.

 

2. This one puzzles me the most. According to this: http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig29/mig29-n019-radar/

The Mig29-S, which has the N019 radar, has the ability to passivly launch R-77's, much the same way the F15 does in TWS.

 

Well not "passively". The MiG-29S has a modified version of the N019 radar(N019M), from which the R-77 can be launched directly from TWS mode - i.e. no need for transition to STT.

 

In Track While Flyby Mode:

"Track-while-flyby mode is intended to allow missile launch at maximum range with minimal warning to the target, by switching to single target tracking mode as late as possible."

 

That description concerns the "baseline" N019 radar operating in SNP mode prior to transition to STT for launch of an R-27R(SARH) missile. It is also a simplification in regards to the purpose of the SNP mode - it assists the pilot in analysing the tactical situation by tracking up to ten contacts and, based on their movements/range, determines which is the most suitable for engagement and displays this to the pilot. But its true that during this procedure, the target is not alerted prematurely about being singled out for engagement in the same way as would be the case if transitioning directly from a search mode to STT for track data.

 

But in game, the R77 immediately (I am assuming) goes pitbull and uses its own radar to track, even while in Track While Flyby (TWS) mode, which therefore gives your target a missile launch warning.

 

Whether the R-77 uses its onboard radar seeker has nothing to do with the mode the aircraft radar is operating in at the point of launch, but rather whether the target is within acquisition range of the ARH seeker(some 16 km against fighter-type target). Unless this is the case at the point of launch, the missile is initially steered towards target by its INS(inertial navigation system)/receiving updated target coordinates via datalink(mid-course guidance).

 

According to some sources, the target's RWR may be able to detect when the launching platform starts to transmit those updated target coordinates to the in-flight missile and thereby trigger a launch warning.....maybe thats what you are seeing(rather than missile seeker going active)?

 

According to that, it should behave similarly to the AMRAAM in that regard, should it not?

 

Yes it should.

[Zurich]

The N019's SNP(TWS) mode is said to be quite vulnerable to ECM - probably due to processing limitations. Anyway, the F-15's APG-63 radar has a lot in its "toolbox" - various specialised modes and features for all sorts of situations, so you cannot assume that capabilities are similar just because both have a TWS mode.

 

Fair enough, I was looking for a source on this one more than anything. If this is common knowledge, then thats my bad.

 

 

Well not "passively". The MiG-29S has a modified version of the N019 radar(N019M), from which the R-77 can be launched directly from TWS mode - i.e. no need for transition to STT.

 

True, not truly passively, but passively enough to not give off a launch warning, according to the article correct? TWS will still give off a search warning to enemy contacts obviously.

 

Even still, in game (as far as I'm aware) even in TWS mode, you have to switch to STT to lock the target officially before you get a launch authorized, which is incorrect according to your statement and the link above.

 

 

According to some sources, the target's RWR may be able to detect when the launching platform starts to transmit those updated target coordinates to the in-flight missile and thereby trigger a launch warning.....maybe thats what you are seeing(rather than missile seeker going active)?

 

Is this whats modeled in game? If so, that explains it, but I was always under the assumption that no one knew for sure and that it currently isn't modeled in game as such. Right now (In game), the R77 is treated as a SARH missile, no matter what mode it is launched in. Once launched, it will always give a launch warning to the enemy aircraft, no matter what that enemy aircraft is. Of course, if the above is modeled in game, then that would explain it.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Zurich

[Seaeagle]

 

True, not truly passively, but passively enough to not give off a launch warning, according to the article correct? TWS will still give off a search warning to enemy contacts obviously.

 

"lock warning" rather - in TWS mode targets are only "illuminated" periodically and therefore their RWR cannot determine whether they have been selected for engagement. When the radar switches to STT, a single target is being illuminated consistently and therefore knows it has been singled out for an attack.

 

"launch warning" is when a missile launch has been detected - although some sources claim that this warning occurs simply when the RWR determines that the received signal strength is such that a missile launch could be imminent(i.e. not that it has actually happened, but just the probability of it), while as mentioned earlier, others claim that the RWR can detect the launching radar starting to transmit radio correction to the in-flight missile.

 

Even still, in game (as far as I'm aware) even in TWS mode, you have to switch to STT to lock the target officially before you get a launch authorized, which is incorrect according to your statement and the link above.

 

With the recent implementation of the "SNP-2" mode for the MiG-29S, you should be able to engage directly from TWS with the R-77....and engage two targets simultaneously if proper conditions are met.

 

Is this whats modeled in game? If so, that explains it, but I was always under the assumption that no one knew for sure and that it currently isn't modeled in game as such.

 

Not sure, but I believe it is.

 

Right now (In game), the R77 is treated as a SARH missile, no matter what mode it is launched in. Once launched, it will always give a launch warning to the enemy aircraft, no matter what that enemy aircraft is. Of course, if the above is modeled in game, then that would explain it.

 

See above. A SARH missile can only be launched from STT and the radar has to transition to this in order to support it at terminal stage of engagement - so if you can launch the R-77 from TWS, it isn't treated as a SARH :)

[JunMcKill]

on the first video on page 2 I can see clear the stick is very simple so that MIG29 is definitely more simple MIG, probably Mig29A

 

"Introduction and improvements

 

In the West, the new fighter was given the NATO reporting name "Fulcrum-A" because the pre-production MiG-29A, which should have logically received this designation, remained unknown in the West at that time. The Soviet Union did not assign official names to most of its aircraft, although nicknames were common. Unusually, some Soviet pilots found the MiG-29’s NATO reporting name, "Fulcrum", to be a flattering description of the aircraft’s intended purpose, and it is sometimes unofficially used in Russian service.[14]

 

The MiG-29B was widely exported in downgraded versions, known as MiG-29B 9-12A and MiG-29B 9-12B for Warsaw Pact and non-Warsaw Pact nations respectively, with less capable avionics and no capability for delivering nuclear weapons. Total production was about 840 aircraft.[citation needed]

 

In the 1980s, Mikoyan developed the improved MiG-29S to use longer range R-27E and R-77 air-to-air missiles. It added a dorsal 'hump' to the upper fuselage to house a jamming system and some additional fuel capacity. The weapons load was increased to 4,000 kg (8,800 lb) with airframe strengthening. These features were included in new-built fighters and upgrades to older MiG-29s.[15][16]

 

 

MiG-29UB trainer

Refined versions of the MiG-29 with improved avionics were fielded by the Soviet Union, but Mikoyan’s multirole variants, including a carrier-based version designated MiG-29K, were never produced in large numbers. Development of the MiG-29K carrier version was suspended for over a decade before being resumed; the type went into service with the Indian Navy's INS Vikramaditya, and Russian Navy's Admiral Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier.

 

In the post-Soviet era, MiG-29 development was influenced by the Mikoyan bureau's apparent lesser political clout than rival Sukhoi.[citation needed] Mikoyan had developed improved versions of the MiG-29, called MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-29SMT. On 15 April 2014, the Russian Air Force placed an order for a batch of 16 MiG-29 SMT fighters.[17]

 

There have been several upgrade programmes conducted for the MiG-29. Common upgrades include the adoption of NATO/ICAO standard-compatible avionics, service life extensions to 4,000 flight hours, safety enhancements, greater combat capabilities and reliability. In 2005, the Russian Aircraft Corporation “MiG” established a unified family of 4++ generation multirole fighters: the aircraft carrier–based MiG-29K, front-line MiG-29M and MiG-35 fighters."

[F0GxLiGhT]

Okay, guys, this might and might NOT be true, I completely agree about the fact that the fulcrum was built under some rough circumstances and was also built to withstand the idea of general system failures, but I also understand that the OVT, Alpha and Sierra prototypes have(Fly-By Wire) or ACS modes for direct control, just like the The Su-27 on DCS, if we're talking realism...

 

Now, the more confusing part is, why doesn't it have a waypoint number preview if it doesn't have an IFF IRST mode?

 

I am honestly not go for the 4th Gen~5th Gen debate, but all I'm gonna say is this, there are a lot of real life pilots and gamer pilots that only fly the MiG-29 out of pure passion and love and seeing this aircraft being the under-dog is just disappointing in my opinion.

[DarkFire]

But in game, the R77 immediately (I am assuming) goes pitbull and uses its own radar to track, even while in Track While Flyby (TWS) mode, which therefore gives your target a missile launch warning.Thanks for the advice!

 

IIRC the R-77 goes pitbull when it thinks it's 15Km from the target. However, you don't get an indication of when this happens and have to guesstimate in your head based on distance & missile closure speed with your target.

[fitness88]

Okay, guys, this might and might NOT be true, I completely agree about the fact that the fulcrum was built under some rough circumstances and was also built to withstand the idea of general system failures, but I also understand that the OVT, Alpha and Sierra prototypes have(Fly-By Wire) or ACS modes for direct control, just like the The Su-27 on DCS, if we're talking realism...

 

Now, the more confusing part is, why doesn't it have a waypoint number preview if it doesn't have an IFF IRST mode?

 

I am honestly not go for the 4th Gen~5th Gen debate, but all I'm gonna say is this, there are a lot of real life pilots and gamer pilots that only fly the MiG-29 out of pure passion and love and seeing this aircraft being the under-dog is just disappointing in my opinion.

 

In the original FC3 the MIG-29 had IRST/EOS elevation control. The HDD showed flight path and numbered waypoints and waypoint course lines all able to be cycled. It's possible these items were removed not only because apparently they weren't real world but also to help give interest to some of the less popular planes...sort of levelling the 'plane' field...so to speak.

Edited September 25, 2016 by fitness88