Dog fighting in the M2000

[The_Pharoah]

Hi guys

 

I've always been an A2G kinda guy but with this beauty that is the M2000C, I've decided to get into ACM. Currently I'm ok with employing the 530D, Magic and cannon however my BIGGEST problem when fighting other jets is I keep losing sight of the enemy...yeah I know, cardinal rule. Part of this issue is my track IR (when I look up too much it'll lose tracking) but also because once the enemy jet goes low, I lose it in the clutter.

 

I've tried using my radar even down to 5kms but it never seems to pick up anything close (even when directly in front of me). I thought I could use the RWR but it's not exactly accurate enough.

 

So, what do I do?

[gospadin]

Two things:

 

1. I don't think vertical angle adjustments are working on the radar yet (next patch maybe)

2. Add vertical gain on your TrackIR and/or mount the camera a bit higher. That'll give you more leeway to look up without it losing sight of your hatclip or proclip.

[0xDEADBEEF]

Also in dogfight, corner speed is key. Afaik with the M2k its around 450KIAS depending on your loading. If anyone has more precise values I'd be happy to hear them :)

[The_Pharoah]

Also in dogfight, corner speed is key. Afaik with the M2k its around 450KIAS depending on your loading. If anyone has more precise values I'd be happy to hear them :)

 

so corner speed meaning the minimum when turning? makes sense to keep your speed up, but your turning radius just balloons.

[OxideMako]

This might be worth watching for you:

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[gospadin]

so corner speed meaning the minimum when turning? makes sense to keep your speed up, but your turning radius just balloons.

 

Ideal corner speed is just that. Above or below it, and your turn rate (degrees per second) decreases.

 

Except for a very few cases, turn radius doesn't matter if your opponent's nose is coming around faster than yours is.

[Stuge]

My pro tips for not losing sight:

 

1) Zoom in more at the target

2) Fiddle with the target visibility settings to find what works best for you. I personally find the visibility enlargement aid confusing and sometimes lose sight because of it so I prefer to have it off.

3) Revert from TrackIR to hat switch :D

4) Revert from LCD monitor to CRT monitor :D:D:D

 

Ok I'm not entirely serious about 3 and 4 but that's my setup :)

[Stuge]

Ideal corner speed is just that. Above or below it, and your turn rate (degrees per second) decreases.

 

Except for a very few cases, turn radius doesn't matter if your opponent's nose is coming around faster than yours is.

 

This is.. uhh.. how to say this nicely.. very far from the truth :)

 

Truth is that radius matters in most dogfight turn geometries. The only time when radius doesn't matter at all is when the fighters are turning at the same direction, in the exact same plane. This is often not the case at all.

[JNelson]

Also when you have a spare 24 hours read this \/

 

 

[ame]http://www.imagery.vnfawing.com/PDF-Archive/Fighter-Combat-Tactics-and-Maneuvering.pdf[/ame]

 

[gospadin]

This is.. uhh.. how to say this nicely.. very far from the truth :)

 

Truth is that radius matters in most dogfight turn geometries. The only time when radius doesn't matter at all is when the fighters are turning at the same direction, in the exact same plane. This is often not the case at all.

 

You're right. I was trying to simplify (unsuccesfully), but yes, radius matters a lot.

[jojo]

Flight model is not in final state.

 

But corner speed at sea level should be around 360kt.

 

But you can use AoA, above 15° you will start bleeding speed quickly.

[The_Pharoah]

thanks guys...I might have to do a bit more reading methinks! :)

[Robin_Hood]

This is.. uhh.. how to say this nicely.. very far from the truth :)

 

Truth is that radius matters in most dogfight turn geometries. The only time when radius doesn't matter at all is when the fighters are turning at the same direction, in the exact same plane. This is often not the case at all.

 

Turn radius matters most in one-circle (or nose to nose) geometry (including flat scissors), while turn rate is more important in two-circle (nose to tail) geometry. It is good to know when you need which. The problem with minimizing turn radius is that it makes you slow (unless maybe you are using the out-of-plane maneuvering for that), because best turn radius speed is lower than best turn rate.

 

The thing about air combat is to know the strenghts of your airplane compared to your opponent.* The fact that the flight model is still WIP complicates the matter a little, since some good/bad points you find now may not stay the same in the future.

 

*: never ever get into thinking of your aircraft's strenghts and weaknesses in absolute terms. It is very much dependant on the relative capabilities of your opponent.

 

But before going into all that, the thing is, the OP says he loses sight. Well, there is a reason why the number 1 priority in air combat is keeping sight (i.e. it is not only necessary byt also very difficult).

 

Some additional considerations for not losing sight (some may not be a good idea depending on the situation) :

 

- stay rather close to the bogey (typically with nose to nose turns ; not advisable if your opponent has a better turn radius)

- stay lower than the bogey, you might see him better with the sky as the background (very unfortunate, since this puts you at a disadvantage - but possibly less so than losing sight)

- use the radar to pick him back up - not that good, since it makes you spend head down, and even then you may not pick him

 

Of course, you should consider the bogey's aircraft size : you will have a harder time keeping sight of an F-5 than a Su-27.

[Stuge]

Turn radius matters most in one-circle (or nose to nose) geometry (including flat scissors), while turn rate is more important in two-circle (nose to tail) geometry. It is good to know when you need which. The problem with minimizing turn radius is that it makes you slow (unless maybe you are using the out-of-plane maneuvering for that), because best turn radius speed is lower than best turn rate.

 

This.. sometimes you want to maximize sustained turn rate but rarely do you want to absolutely minimize your radius. What you often need is to strike a balance between the two. In one circle geometry make your radius just slightly smaller than the bandit's, this way you only bleed as much speed as is necessary to gain advantage, while having enough speed to keep up with a sustained turn again, or a chase if necessary. Rate vs radius is not black or white, you have all the shades of gray in between.

[TomCatMucDe]

It is not easy to keep eye contact with the enemy on the merge. It requires a lot of training and getting used to it. I would recommand that you train on that offline. You can pause the game after the merge and try to train on locate the bandit using fast head turns.

 

Start with big fighters and then smaller ones. The MiG21 and F5 being the hardest to spot in my opinion.

[Fri13]

Ideal corner speed is just that. Above or below it, and your turn rate (degrees per second) decreases.

 

Except for a very few cases, turn radius doesn't matter if your opponent's nose is coming around faster than yours is.

 

It would not matter even when the opponent nose isn't pointing you dangerously, but their HMS has you already locked and the missile is fired at you, that has far higher speed and capability for higher G forces than you?

 

Doesn't at that moment the turning radius matter as you should need to be able fly away from the missile turn radius and you can't do that if you have huge turn radius, even when you are faster to turn to the opponent?

[GGTharos]

That's correct. Getting close helps you rmin missiles, but it didn't necessarily mean you have to minimize turn radius.