OT: Fighter Ops

[Cosmonaut]

I am a Area 51 member and alot of opinions here are pessimistic...

I choose however to be optomistic.

The difference is the hype. This game this forum is based upon was so overhyped and overblown.. even I fell to it's wave.. but FO has been upfront and straight forward with everyone.

 

Thing main thing I see differently than LO, is FO has Real Pilots involved with the project and make themselves known. LO doesn't, but everyone here, who have never flown a SU, MIG, F-% will tell you everything is correct and real....and that a SU radar cone operates at a frequency of ..such and such.

 

This is one of my main complaints with this crowd (and I like most of these folks)

 

As for that t38 ride... wouldn't you expect someone who share our passion, try to put that real experience in the sim they are developing? If not...why

are they even try to code it?

 

I say.. give them a break and show your support for a possible new twist on flight sim that just may surprise you.

 

The idea is the first part will be for training similar to RL (obviously it can't be totally real) THEN after that Fighter trainings, THEN you go out on a Mission that you take off from Oregon and get assigned to (ie..Saudia Arabia) and you have to FLY there....

 

LO you just have a island.

 

 

 

The thing is that FO hasn’t been released yet so all you can compare is what we have and the hype of what we might get, which is an impossible comparison. When FO is released we will obviously get a more accurate picture but a lot of what folks are talking about is the training and the entire world being modeled etc. All of that is already available in FS9 to a very high level and unless you’re into procedural flying then it can be quite boring. Now I’m not complaining, being an avid user of FS9 one of the things I’m looking forward to in FO is the flying by the numbers but IMO what really sets F4 apart from other sims isn’t the switchology or the avionics but it’s more the being part of entire combat environment and that is what I will be looking forward to when I buy FO.

[Cosmonaut]

Actually calling it an "Annual fee" or "yearly subscription" is not accurate, you only pay once for the program, and you will be able to fly that program along with the free updates and add-ons you get throughout the year for as many years as you want.

 

There will however be new releases approximately every year which will add substantial content to the sim, however will be stand-alone packages, which again will be yours to use for however many years you want without paying another cent. Therefore to call it a yearly fee or subscription is highly misleading.

 

There is nothing stopping someone waiting three or four years to by their first copy of Fighter Ops, the copy they get will be the same as the person who has purchased the new editions every year for those 3 or 4 years, they'll just have missed out on the enjoyment and experience of those years of flying.

 

 

Thanks for the info Buckshot.

 

I think the reason we would call it an "Annual fee" or "yearly subscription", which is obviously inaccurate, is that most flightsimmers would want to have compatible versions for online play and third party missions so we would more than likely purchase each new addon on release. However your last paragraph is the most informative I’m glad I could skip an addon or two and then get back to a compatible version just by purchasing the latest release.

[Alfa]

I am a Area 51 member and alot of opinions here are pessimistic...

I choose however to be optomistic.

 

You do?? :huh: - forgive me for sounding surprised, but that would constitue a 100% change from the doom & gloom attitude you constantly display here. Maybe the explanation is that there just isen't anything for you to be dissapointed about in FO......yet ;) .

 

The difference is the hype. This game this forum is based upon was so overhyped and overblown.. even I fell to it's wave.. but FO has been upfront and straight forward with everyone.

 

Wait a minute - are you saying that Lock-on is overhyped and FO isen't?!....ROFL.

 

Thing main thing I see differently than LO, is FO has Real Pilots involved with the project and make themselves known. LO doesn't..

 

Guess again... :) .

 

..but everyone here, who have never flown a SU, MIG, F-% will tell you everything is correct and real....and that a SU radar cone operates at a frequency of ..such and such. This is one of my main complaints with this crowd (and I like most of these folks)

 

Oh I don't know - I have seen people here having never flown a SU, MIG or F-%, who will tell you that everything is wrong and unrealistic ;) .

 

I say.. give them a break and show your support for a possible new twist on flight sim that just may surprise you.

 

I agree - it just sounds a little funny coming from you :) .

 

The idea is the first part will be for training similar to RL (obviously it can't be totally real) THEN after that Fighter trainings, THEN you go out on a Mission that you take off from Oregon and get assigned to (ie..Saudia Arabia) and you have to FLY there....

 

I think that if you expect to be able to fly all the way from Oregon to Saudi Arabia over terrain with a detail level and RL accuracy even remotely similar to what we have in LO, you will be waiting for FO for a very long time :) .

 

LO you just have a island.

 

See above. Having fiddled with terrain modding in LO, I have a pretty good idea about the level of work involved in building an accurate and detailed 3D environment.......a world map is a cool idea(which I know ED has talked about too), but there is no way in hell a sim maker could provide the kind of detail level we have in LO for anything but small "patches"(regions) of it. IMHO for a world map to be really interesting, some rather comprehensive utilities would have to be made available to the third party modders.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[SUBS17]

Thats true but x-plane already comes with whole world terrain modelling, so does FS9. There is alot more possibilitys for online play if you have such a map. The level of detail well LO is the most detailed at the moment but I think FSX may catch up slightly with some of its features.

[bflagg]

Alfa..

c'mon... everything thing I've stated is true. I have gone from avid supporter of LockON to a very pessimistic person about ED itself and I am not the only one.

IF ED really cared about it's Western customer base...they should be asking why.... but they do not.....in fact.... nothing... zilch.. Nada...zippo...

In fact I would suggest that they post a questionaire on their pages to ask questions....

 

Throughout my gaming experience of 20+ years,, never have I felt more betrayed than when I spend $800+ (upgrades, peripherials, paying for addons...etc..) to enhance by experience with this game and realize the producer had no intention of following their own PR.

You may have $$ to throw to the wind and like some of the others and say "oh well maybe next release"...and

conisider it acceptable... but for me it's not. ON that princible alone that would make me a doom and gloom person?

 

It's a limited flight sim and is currently left half broken for various reasons. It's doesn't mean crap what

the community has to say...it's all ED's and we are fooling ourselves.

ED has stated after BS the lockon world is done (last I heard).... so nothing currently wrong will be fixed...

and the top thing that annoys me most is when folks think this is the real deal and talk like it and you know it's not.

Does that make me negative because I'm point out a fact?

 

Everything about this product has been overblown and overhyped since it's release.

Does that mean ED is bad? .. No not at all. Just their PR team needs to be replaced.

But responsiblity still reamains with ED itself reguardless.

 

I am totally justified in my feelings on this matter. I will never waiver in this attitude from any company that pulls the same type stuff.

 

As for RL pilots. I have never seen one post or anything here except to say nice sim.

On other boards available around the net.. .the ones that I've read ll say the exact same thing (pretty much).. "it's pretty but not right" (paraphrased).... It's amazing still how folks are ignoring these pro's for a PR improved spin...

I have never said I know anything..except what I read and what I'm told by two folks who have DIRECT experiences. I have for a long time now, stopped even trying to talk to folks about what little I do or don't know. It's always proven to be useless (because it will never end up in LO)

 

I am not a Doom or gloom person, but my feelings about this game and some experiances I've gardnered here has to this day remain consistant. Nothing has changed. You will also note my

disagreeable attitude has ALWAYS been consitant about the same thing. How WE are being treated.

 

I still come here for one and only one reason only... It's not the game but the things I learn from some of the folks here....and I do believe FO will be all that LO wasn't. But like all things.. only time will tell. and I choose to be optomistic about it, just like I was with LO for it's first 2 years.

 

edit...:

Honestly It kinda bothers me you say such a thing...because I am not that kind of person at all

and you are one of those folks I learn from ... I will reconsider my future postings to avoid

such a image...

[Guest Hell Sqn Protos]

S~!

 

Excellent Post BFlagg :thumbup:

 

Of course all the fanboys living in denial are going to jump on you.

 

Rep inbound.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Agreed. ED should show good faith and fix what people have already paid for, and still doesn't work as advertised, before wanting everybody to pony up another 30 or 40 bucks for a "But wait...this time it will all work...we promise." I'm not talking about the age-old debates about what weapon can and can't do what, I just want to have an assurance that the 3rd or Xth time I land at my FOB that I will be able to take off again instead of suddenly, unexplainably, finding myself knee-deep in water. Good post, Bret! :D

[Alfa]

Look Brett - we all have our gripes with pet issues of Lock-on and occasionally feel frustrated about it, but to be perfectly honest I think you may be expecting a little too much too soon.

 

I cannot subscribe to the notion that we are fooling ourselves to think that Lock-on is moving in the right direction - I think the nature of FC is evidence that ED is commited to constantly improve on the product. From first hand experience as tester, I can say that Black Shark will take the simming experience to a new level and further improve on a lot of things.

 

The bit about Lock-on coming to the end of the line is irrelevant - "Lock-on" is just a name......it is not like ED has to ditch everything developed so far and start from scratch for a new title :) .

 

I think it is great that you support FO and are optimistic about its future, but please realise that it is a lot easier to be optimistic about something when you haven't yet experienced the shortcomings that will inevitably be part of any simulation game.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Shaman]

The bit about Lock-on coming to the end of the line is irrelevant - "Lock-on" is just a name......it is not like ED has to ditch everything developed so far and start from scratch for a new title :) .

There's nothing more time consuming then "reinventing the wheel" - so writing new engine from the scratch. Though in case of Lock On and its graphical engine there should be a lot of improvements to be done. We all know that it is suffering from horrible implementation of shaders. I mean we're suffering - end users that care about FPS on our crappy PCs.

Lock On is also suffering from the lack of true hardware accelarated sound engine (anything like OpenAL will do). As far I remember sound programmer left ED team in early Lock On development and ED had to improvise pretty much.

[Coffee999]

Alfa..

c'mon... everything thing I've stated is true. I have gone from avid supporter of LockON to a very pessimistic person about ED itself and I am not the only one.

IF ED really cared about it's Western customer base...they should be asking why.... but they do not.....in fact.... nothing... zilch.. Nada...zippo...

In fact I would suggest that they post a questionaire on their pages to ask questions....

 

Throughout my gaming experience of 20+ years,, never have I felt more betrayed than when I spend $800+ (upgrades, peripherials, paying for addons...etc..) to enhance by experience with this game and realize the producer had no intention of following their own PR.

You may have $$ to throw to the wind and like some of the others and say "oh well maybe next release"...and

conisider it acceptable... but for me it's not. ON that princible alone that would make me a doom and gloom person?

 

It's a limited flight sim and is currently left half broken for various reasons. It's doesn't mean crap what

the community has to say...it's all ED's and we are fooling ourselves.

ED has stated after BS the lockon world is done (last I heard).... so nothing currently wrong will be fixed...

and the top thing that annoys me most is when folks think this is the real deal and talk like it and you know it's not.

Does that make me negative because I'm point out a fact?

 

Everything about this product has been overblown and overhyped since it's release.

Does that mean ED is bad? .. No not at all. Just their PR team needs to be replaced.

But responsiblity still reamains with ED itself reguardless.

 

I am totally justified in my feelings on this matter. I will never waiver in this attitude from any company that pulls the same type stuff.

 

As for RL pilots. I have never seen one post or anything here except to say nice sim.

On other boards available around the net.. .the ones that I've read ll say the exact same thing (pretty much).. "it's pretty but not right" (paraphrased).... It's amazing still how folks are ignoring these pro's for a PR improved spin...

I have never said I know anything..except what I read and what I'm told by two folks who have DIRECT experiences. I have for a long time now, stopped even trying to talk to folks about what little I do or don't know. It's always proven to be useless (because it will never end up in LO)

 

I am not a Doom or gloom person, but my feelings about this game and some experiances I've gardnered here has to this day remain consistant. Nothing has changed. You will also note my

disagreeable attitude has ALWAYS been consitant about the same thing. How WE are being treated.

 

I still come here for one and only one reason only... It's not the game but the things I learn from some of the folks here....and I do believe FO will be all that LO wasn't. But like all things.. only time will tell. and I choose to be optomistic about it, just like I was with LO for it's first 2 years.

 

edit...:

Honestly It kinda bothers me you say such a thing...because I am not that kind of person at all

and you are one of those folks I learn from ... I will reconsider my future postings to avoid

such a image...

 

I agree with everything bflagg said. I too have become frustraighted even though I still like LO/FC, but don't fly it much anymore.

[tflash]

I have this irresistible need to buy flightsims. So if fighterOps comes out, I will buy. Just like BS.

 

Currently, Lockon is the best TWO sims on my HD. It's a truly fantastic single player air-to-air combat sim, flying breathtaking aircraft like Mig-29A, Su-27, F-15C, Mig-29S, Su-33 (in order of beauty). It should be the best online air-to-air sim also, but I'm not good enough for multiplayer. On my PC, it has tremendous graphics, excellent performance and works without a glitch.

 

Second, it is a very good battlefield sim. I enjoy making missions for hogs and other low-crawling ugly's like the froggy. I find it an grown-up's Battlefield II.

Its dirty and muddy, but real fun. I guess BS will take that experience to a very next level!

 

I fly F4:AF and SFP1/WOV/WOE and of course the IL-2 stuff very often also; but if I should keep only one game, it would be two: FC 1.12a!

[Jay]

Hey tflash - why do you think you're not good enough for multiplayer? The more folks on-line the better. We'll be glad to see you on-line. Trust me - it's great fun :thumbup:

 

As for LO vs. FO discussion - It seems to me that some of you guys here are missing one fact - LO is here for three years already and FO isn't released yet - so there is (and maybe there won't be) nothing to compare IMO. When FO will be out it should be a good new sim. But it won't be LO sequel, it will be DIFFERENT sim.

 

I really like Lock-on. I've been flying it for almost three years, from it's first release. I went throught all it's updates and I must say the older the better. Now there are no major problems that really annoy me. There are some things I'd like to be changed, but they are based on the game's engine, so I forgot it. I'm really looking forward to BS because I know what to expect. On the other hand I don't know exactly what to expect from FO. I don't expect that fantastic photorealistic world that we can enjoy with LO. But some other things should be better if FO uses newer graphic features (e.g. DX9 based). I also expect the FM to be more realistic (thx to the X-Plane-based engine). But many other questions remain not to be answered sooner than after it's release.

 

Until then - LONG LIVE THE LOCK-ON :smilewink:

[ARM505]

I'm a real pilot - the Su25 basic and T have excellent feeling flight models. (My highly scientific input there, LOL :) )

 

I get the feel FO is being made out to be some kind of simming nirvana by some here - who in their right mind thinks it won't have numerous faults, just like any other sim ever released? Who thinks their own pet problems with it will be instantly attended to by the developers? Looking eternally forward to some mythical (at the moment), supposedly ultra hardcore product, when you have LO right here, right now......well, lets just say I'm enjoying moving mud in the Frogs, trapping in the Su33, etc etc.....right now.

[bflagg]

ARM505...

Don't misunderstand me.. there is only so much that can be done in a PC type simulation and I am under no illusions (disillusions?) of FO.

 

As Alpha stated about the details of the maps and the complexity of it and the suggestion of which he implies.. that PC's can only do so much... that falls under this category, and his point is quite correct.

 

LO is still on my HD and I do play from time to time.. but nothing like I used to because there is no sense of 'anything' going on...

[bflagg]

If FO can deliver what they promise then I'll be buying it. One thing you can guarantee, they won't be ignoring the U.S. aircraft and focusing elsewhere....................

 

The most exciting thing I look forward to is the training syllabus and the graduation to the next level A/C with associated training... (it's a great idea)

[S77th-GOYA]

I cannot subscribe to the notion that we are fooling ourselves to think that Lock-on is moving in the right direction - I think the nature of FC is evidence that ED is commited to constantly improve on the product.

 

Constantly improve on which product? I have two ED products installed on my machine and from what I hear, ED is ignoring the problems that their products have. Only to make a new product to sell me.

[Weta43]

So apart from the fact that they're Russian not American - how are the 2 AFM planes not a move in the direction you'd like ED to take their sim? Improved flight models, improved weapons control & general avionics modelling, improved modability, improved damage modelling & improved models for 1 of them.

Also - the fact is that every patch they've done has had changes put in with the intention of fixing the issues with the existing planes, weapons, radars & system modelling that people moan about the most - unfortunately some of the changes didn't have quite the desired effect, but saying they didn't try is just ignoring reality because it doesn't fit the story you want to tell.

[S77th-GOYA]

Ignoring reality is judging this game on things that are not present in this game. 1.12a is reality. BS will someday be reality. And from what we are told, the problems currently in 1.12a will still be there in BS. That is reality.

 

The fact that the patches released from ED have fixed problems as well as created new problems isn't exactly a glowing testimonial. But that is reality too.

 

Posts about the wonderful direction ED is heading miss the point entirely. And the point is this: We paid for LOMAC and we paid for FC. Until the problems with those products are worked out ED should not go in ANY direction unless correcting its past releases is part of the plan. And this does not mean the problems will be corrected if we buy ED's next three releases over the next 8 years to get those problems fixed.

[Agg]

This thread just gets stupider and stupider by the moment, you keep complaining about how Lock-On is full of bugs, and how ED doesnt take you seriously by fixing those bugs, well, what makes you think that Fighter Ops will be flawless?

It is impossible to make a game without bugs, and if FO ever gets released it too will be full of bugs!

 

You keep bitching on and on about how ED sucks and what not, and praise a product that is FAR from finished to near godlike status, that's just absurd to me...

I think all you FO-fanboys are in for a real slap in the face if you think that its going to be perfect, and that all the features promissed by the developers will be implemented into the final product.

 

As I said in my last post, the FO-guys have shown that they are talented modellers, but so far they havent shown any proof that they know how to make a flight sim.

All the screenshots on their site are just renders from 3ds max and such.

 

As far as I understand, they are planning on using a modified version of the X-Plane graphics engine, have any of you fanboys even seen X-Plane?

Its not exactly breathtaking...and by no means able to render models as detailed as those on the FO site in real time.

 

Furthermore; models consisting of 40 000 polygons (like FO's Strike Eagle) would more or less kill any system to date.

 

So lets just wait and see, if they even get a playable version of FO out there, before we start praising it shall we?

[dodger42]

Agg I didn't hear anybody say that FighterOps would be flawless.

[Crusty]

Agg I didn't hear anybody say that FighterOps would be flawless.

 

No but I do hear people saying its going to be great because some of the developers took a flight in a t38....

 

it takes a certain type of person with years of experiance in a cockpit to actually give worthwhile feedback on an aircrafts performance..they call them test pilots..not game developers

all these guys are getting out of there flight time is a big grin, they would do better just reading up on performance data

[Cosmonaut]

S~!

 

Excellent Post BFlagg :thumbup:

 

Of course all the fanboys living in denial are going to jump on you.

 

Rep inbound.

 

Fanboys??... That’s complete BS I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a flightsim community that’s more self critical and understanding of the limitations of lockon than the members on these boards. The only ones living in denial are those looking for the perfect flightsim and don’t want to understand why things are the way they are. Lockon is pretty much unfinished, from what it was intended to be and the reason for this, with out going into to much detail, is that UBI acquired SSI and then forced an early release of lockon.

 

Some of the comments here are comparing lockon to a sim that isn’t even out yet and you call members here fanboys, that’s pretty funny .. I mean we all want the FO team to deliver and I believe in time they will, I just hope FO “fanboys” don’t take flightsiming too seriously and create a divide between them and every other simmer like a few members of the F4 community have done.

 

pS. Anyone know if FO are going to have any Russian flyables?

[Buckshot]

As far as I understand, they are planning on using a modified version of the X-Plane graphics engine, have any of you fanboys even seen X-Plane?

Its not exactly breathtaking...and by no means able to render models as detailed as those on the FO site in real time.

 

Furthermore; models consisting of 40 000 polygons (like FO's Strike Eagle) would more or less kill any system to date.

 

Sorry but you are completely misinformed on both counts.

[SVK_Fox]

I will play it only if it will possible to fly with some russian planes!

And if that game will be with STARFORCE - no THANKS!

[SUBS17]

No but I do hear people saying its going to be great because some of the developers took a flight in a t38....

 

it takes a certain type of person with years of experiance in a cockpit to actually give worthwhile feedback on an aircrafts performance..they call them test pilots..not game developers

all these guys are getting out of there flight time is a big grin, they would do better just reading up on performance data

 

They have actual pilots as advisors as well, I'm pretty sure thats been mentioned(including IPs and students). I still think its a good idea that both of those guys went up as a Sim pilots perspective would be necessary for a comparison as well.