RBK-500

[Hydrox]

Are the Cluster bombs underpowered, I remember leveling grounds with A-10C/CPU-97. Compared to that RBK-500 looks like some bird droppings (I don't know if bird droppings do damage to T-80 though). I was quite low when I tried the bombs, 400-1000m I think, and what altitude do you deliver your bombs to get maximum spread?

[WinterH]

CBU-97 & CBU-105 have sort of guided submunitions. They seek for targets and hurl themselves at them when they find one. So they score (usually multiple) direct hits on vehicles below.

 

Every other cluster bomb in DCS is another story. In my experience using them with MiG-21 and Mirage 2000, and also Su-25 sometimes, best approach is low and fast attack, at about 700 meters altitude, they will create a nice linear pattern on a convoy. But even then, you can get may be 5-6 kills with a perfect attack, and that is highly difficult to pull off. You need to perfectly line up with convoy and land the spread right on top of them. Very fun to do anyway.

 

If you want a circular spread isntead, well that one is hard to pull off. I can't think of a accurate method to do that in DCS. I'd love to hear if anyone has one. If you can accurately deliver the bombs in a toss bombing maneuver, they usually create a circular pattern then. But that one more fantasy than a practical technique with such ordnance in my opinion. While I have never tried, I suppose a diving attack (a steep, stuka like dive) from a high enough altitude may also create a circular pattern but to get it large enough, you'd really need to drop them pretty high, and any accuracy with such a method may be similar to tossing method.

 

Then there's CBU-87, A-10s "normal" cluster bomb. For some reason, I am yet to kill anything with it, although I haven't tried it in newer versions.

 

While the cluster bombs are fun to use, in my experience it almost always yielded better results using a salvo of GP bombs instead.

[DarkFire]

Are the Cluster bombs underpowered, I remember leveling grounds with A-10C/CPU-97. Compared to that RBK-500 looks like some bird droppings (I don't know if bird droppings do damage to T-80 though). I was quite low when I tried the bombs, 400-1000m I think, and what altitude do you deliver your bombs to get maximum spread?

 

Unfortunately it's impossible to set the burst altitude for Russian CBU's (the RBK family) so the only way to adjust the size of the spread pattern is to adjust the release altitude and guess. With experience you'll be able to get some idea of how the spread changes with release altitude, but higher altitude also means less accuracy.

 

Personally I've always been very unimpressed by the performance of the RBK cluster bombs. Nearly always you'll be better off using FAB-500's.

[Hydrox]

Yeah I think the aiming from much higher altitude would be quite hard, especially with FABs, Maybe I try FABs at lower alt and see what those RBKs do from higher altitude then.

[Ironhand]

Since in the Su-27 you're handicapped by not being able to set the number of bombs to release or the interval between them, you'll probably get the best results using salvo mode with at least 4 RBKs on the pylons. High speed pass, level flight around 1000-1200 m altitude, CCRP. But try WinterH's suggested altitude, too.

[Ironhand]

...

If you want a circular spread instead, well that one is hard to pull off. I can't think of a accurate method to do that in DCS. I'd love to hear if anyone has one...

Reread you comments and was wondering where this circular spread would come from. Even in dive/toss, the bomb would have some forward momentum leading to a similar elliptical spread, wouldn't it? Perhaps the pattern would be a bit less elongated but... Just thinking out loud apropos to nothing.

[DarkFire]

Reread you comments and was wondering where this circular spread would come from. Even in dive/toss, the bomb would have some forward momentum leading to a similar elliptical spread, wouldn't it? Perhaps the pattern would be a bit less elongated but... Just thinking out loud apropos to nothing.

 

I guess theoretically in a 90 degree vertical diving attack the bomb would have zero speed in x or y directions so the dispersal pattern should be circular. Doing that sort of dive attack in the Su-27 might get a bit hairy though... :crazy:

[WinterH]

Reread you comments and was wondering where this circular spread would come from. Even in dive/toss, the bomb would have some forward momentum leading to a similar elliptical spread, wouldn't it? Perhaps the pattern would be a bit less elongated but... Just thinking out loud apropos to nothing.

 

That's just what I have experienced in playing around with such deliveries, but that was about a year ago. If I didn't do a low alt. and high speed level relese, pattern would not be a linear one. Not a perfect circle of course but it was still more circular than level bombing.

[DarkFire]

Well, this is interesting. I just flew a test mission and bombed the intersection of the disused runways north of Kobuleti with pairs of RBK-500-U cluster bombs. I tried releases from 1,000m, 2,000m and I think about 2,500m altitude.

 

Very rough and ready test, but it appears that the sub-munition coverage is not only constant, being about 80% the width of a runway, but was always roughly circular.

 

I'd always believed that the Russian cluster bombs were actuated with a simple timer so that the burst height was dependant on release altitude, but now I'm not so sure. It looks more like that they're operated by a simple barometric burster. The pattern I got with the pairs of cluster bombs was so small that anything they would have caught would probably also have been caught in the frag pattern of a FAB-500 (if frag was modelled in DCS of course).

 

I'm not really seeing the point of the Russian cluster bombs as they are now.

 

Track attached.

[Hydrox]

I did some testing too with U's, and dropped from 1000, 2000, 2700, 3200, 3700 meters and really didn't see much difference between, well, between any of them. Also trying to drop them from higher altitude just makes aiming so hard due to lack of proper targeting system, that you are better off with bombing from 1000 meters, which I guess answers my original question then; "NO! Don't use any of them"

Edited February 26, 2016 by Hydrox

[Ironhand]

...

 

I'd always believed that the Russian cluster bombs were actuated with a simple timer so that the burst height was dependant on release altitude, but now I'm not so sure. It looks more like that they're operated by a simple barometric burster...

 

I'm not really seeing the point of the Russian cluster bombs as they are now...

I agree with your last statement, as well as Hydrox's, that there's not much point in loading them onto the Flanker but I think you'll find, if you take a closer look, that your first impression about how they work was correct.

 

If you drop them from level flight, they release their submunitions 3 seconds after you drop them. I just watched them explode at roughly 2200, 1000, and 500 meters altitude depending on the altitude at which they were released. Coverage of a single RBK-500 (PTAB-1M) ranged from roughly 2 runway widths (at Kobuleti field--"X") to slightly less than one runway width--again dependent on submunitions release altitude. But they are fairly worthless in their effect regardless.

[WinterH]

I have never used them on Flanker, and I think they'd be rather pointless on Su-27 indeed. But they do work on Su-25 and MiG-21 with level deliveries, yet even then they are more a novelty than first choice. A full complement of FAB-500 or even FAB-100 on multiple ejector racks tend to work better in DCS. With the added bonus of being more versatile since they also work better for diving or tossing attacks. Also, Su-25 can use KMGU submunition dispensers instead, which can destroy more than clusters.

 

My high altitude diving idea was completely theoretical and not meant as an effective way to use RBKs. For such an attack, a couple FAB 500s are potentially both more accurate and more destructive.

[Hydrox]

Yeah, one can always switch to Su-25T, if in bombing mood, and let Su-27s keep skies clear :)

[DarkFire]

I agree with your last statement, as well as Hydrox's, that there's not much point in loading them onto the Flanker but I think you'll find, if you take a closer look, that your first impression about how they work was correct.

 

If you drop them from level flight, they release their submunitions 3 seconds after you drop them. I just watched them explode at roughly 2200, 1000, and 500 meters altitude depending on the altitude at which they were released. Coverage of a single RBK-500 (PTAB-1M) ranged from roughly 2 runway widths (at Kobuleti field--"X") to slightly less than one runway width--again dependent on submunitions release altitude. But they are fairly worthless in their effect regardless.

 

Ah fair enough, that settles it then, they must be operated by a simple timer. I've been trying to think of usage cases for the RBK's where they'd be more effective than iron bombs. Troops in the open? Maybe?

 

Ultimately I suppose RBKs < FABs < PGMs.

 

I agree with Hydrox - while the Su-27 is cabale of more or less accurate bombing, why bother if you have an Su-25T available? :D

[Ironhand]

Ah fair enough, that settles it then, they must be operated by a simple timer. I've been trying to think of usage cases for the RBK's where they'd be more effective than iron bombs. Troops in the open? Maybe?

 

Ultimately I suppose RBKs < FABs < PGMs.

 

I agree with Hydrox - while the Su-27 is cabale of more or less accurate bombing, why bother if you have an Su-25T available? :D

You are at a definite disadvantage in the Flanker due to the lack of muntions control. But, honestly, a single RBK500 has more chance of destroying a target than a single FAB500. Accuracy is less of an issue as long as you can release within certain parameters. Obviously, dropping an RBK from high altitude is a none starter. But from 1000 m, it's a different story.

[ShuRugal]

I guess theoretically in a 90 degree vertical diving attack the bomb would have zero speed in x or y directions so the dispersal pattern should be circular. Doing that sort of dive attack in the Su-27 might get a bit hairy though... :crazy:

 

Split-S and release at -90 degrees...

[DarkFire]

Split-S and release at -90 degrees...

 

Hmm good idea, I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to give that a try...

[Nerd1000]

Split-S and release at -90 degrees...

It would be better to put the target off your wing and break towards it instead of using a standard split-S. That way you can see the target for the entire attack rather than losing sight of it beneath your nose prior to starting your dive.

[WinterH]

So we are full circle back to Stuka :) ?

[DarkFire]

So we are full circle back to Stuka :) ?

 

I guess we are :D though I'd guess that using a fighter for ground attack in any modern IADS environment without total SEAD supremacy is probably an order of magnitude more dangerous than rolling in on a tank battalion at Kursk or a radar station on the south coast of England during world war 2. Not detracting in any way from the bravery of the pilots who fought for all sides in the war, but I'd guess that the present day battlefield present far more deadly threats to aircraft than ever before. I guess COIN and counter-terrorism operations would present much less of a threat which could make CAS using non-PGM platforms more survivable.

[Ironhand]

:) As I try to visualize this 90* release, I keep imagining my RBKs being above me as they slow while I keep powering through...

[DarkFire]

:) As I try to visualize this 90* release, I keep imagining my RBKs being above me as they slow while I keep powering through...

 

Turns out this is a valid concern. I just tried some 'high altitude' RBK release tests (released from ~3,500m then ~4,500m) and while the cluster bombs were surprisingly accurate even from that altitude, tacview shows that the RBK pairs, particularly the second pair, actuated very close to my altitude :unsure:

 

DCS 1.5.3 & Tacview 1.4.2

[Silver_Dragon]

I think if ED improve the fuses configuration on bombs and CBUs in the future, surely can be some type of impact on submissions deploy patterns.

[Ironhand]

Turns out this is a valid concern...

I thought it might be... :) Once released, you only have 3 seconds to gain sufficient separation.

 

I think if ED improve the fuses configuration on bombs and CBUs in the future, surely can be some type of impact on submissions deploy patterns.

They've got a lot of work to do as far as weapon modeling is concerned on a number of fronts...

 

 

Rich

[DarkFire]

I've been trying to do some research on Soviet and more recent Russian cluster munitions. Reason being, all we have in game at the moment are the RBK cluster bombs and KGMU submunition dispensers. I was wondering if there's a Russian equivalent to something like the CBU-97 anti-armour WCMD. Turns out there is.

 

Though information is very scarce it appears that there's a RBK-500-SPBE and later variants (SPBE-D and SPBE-F) which does have skeet-type anti-armour submunitions. It appears that the RBK version isn't a wind-corrected dispenser but it'd be interesting to have that sort of semi-smart anti-armour cluster munition in DCS.

 

As an aside, it looks like the Russians also have an equivalent of the JDAM called the KAB-500S-E which is Glonass steered rather that being laser guided.

 

It'd be really nice to have a Russian tactical bomber to use so that we could make use of KAB weapons and the like. Who knows, maybe when the multi-seat AI that Belsimtek are working on finally appears we could have a workable Su-24M2? I think that would be a very nice counterpart to things like the F/A-18 and apparently upcoming Tornado GR1. Maybe as a more relevant counterpart to the Su-24M2 we could have an F-15E? I've no idea how accurate a simulation it was but Janes did at least a believable job with their F-15E sim back in the day. I digress...