Survival in the F-15 - new to electronic warfare

[TAW_Blaze]

So, do you have to say sir to guys in your group with higher rank and salute? lol Seriously. Who are these computer pilot hero instructors of yours? Other than some game techniques, unless someone is currently an active duty mil pilot or retired, I'd take what they say with a grain of salt. Having said that, our group has several of each. :)

 

They may or may not be better than a real life instructor but as far as DCS goes they are good as you can find. And regardless of how dedicated you are, you still might not have the chance to be taught by them. Albeit the chance is proportional with the dedication, and the curve is exponential.

 

Not sure what you mean with this degrading "some game techniques" comment because that's exactly what real life people teach too, except those are real life techniques. Guess what, they are based on their environment.

 

And if you think sticking to real life tactics and only that is the best way to go then you have no idea. There's a few of the best guys I've met who don't give a flying **** about what a real life engagement might look like. Environment defines the rules.

[probad]

Environment defines the rules.

 

that's the most realistic statement ive heard in this entire forum

[Reflected]

Let's assume you are within 15 miles, you just defeated his missile and you are not entirely sure where he is. What do you do? What radar mode do you use and how?

[Sryan]

I'd say either vertical scan ( will autolock up to 10nm or so away ) or BVR, then make the scan cone narrow and turn the cone into the direction you're turning in, you'll need to have a decent bead on his altitude to use this. Someone more expierenced than myself may have another idea. Use your eyes as well if you think he's within that range. And don't go anywhere blindly. If you've got no clue it may be better to extend away and then return from a longer range in BVR mode.

[Reflected]

Thanks for your reply!

 

I have another question: when should I jam? And when shouldn't I? This part is still not entirely clear.

[Nerd1000]

Thanks for your reply!

 

I have another question: when should I jam? And when shouldn't I? This part is still not entirely clear.

Jammers aren't well modeled in DCS- they all act as simple barrage jammers. Essentially, they pump out a bunch of noise on the enemy radar's spectrum. This makes it impossible for the hostile radar to determine how far away you are. It will also interfere with TWS modes- the F-15 radar will have trouble forming a track, while the Su-27's radar will simply drop out of TWS entirely. The tradeoff is that it will pinpoint your azimuth and elevation from much further away than hostile radars would normally be able to detect you.

 

Once the enemy gets close enough (IIRC inside 20nm or so for a F-15 radar, but someone else should confirm that) the enemy radar will 'burn through' your jamming, allowing it to resolve range. Aircraft with AIM-120s can attempt Home on Jam shots from further away, though the current missile performance in DCS means that most of the time a fighter's radar will burn through the jamming before the target is within the 120's effective range.

 

In short, jamming is usually more trouble than it's worth. It does help a bit vs SAMs, but when it comes to fighters... even the MiG-21 has an anti-jamming mode that will allow him to track you (at the expense of preventing him from locking you from any range other than ~8km). Meanwhile it acts as a giant 'LOOK OVER HERE' beacon for every enemy aircraft in range.

[Reflected]

Thanks, it makes sense! So I will only turn it on when over SAM city.

 

Also, could someone please remind me of the HI vs MED rule? Which one is for below 40 nm and which one is for longer ranges?

[TAW_Blaze]

Let's assume you are within 15 miles, you just defeated his missile and you are not entirely sure where he is. What do you do? What radar mode do you use and how?

 

Define "not sure". Generally in this scenario you should have an idea of what his bearing and altitude should be. That doesn't mean he'll be there but if you have a lot of experience he'll often be close to where you think.

 

AAQ modes work only inside 10nm. In the situation you described you should be in RWS. Reduce azimuth to +-30 deg if you're confident you have a good idea about his bearing from you. Use MPRF. Antenna elevation is the other crucial thing. People tend to fly low so on a server it's mostly favorable to look low first (albeit not always).

 

If you think he's inside 10 but no idea where he is exactly you should still use RWS. If you have a decent idea of where he should be you can start screwing around with vertical or boresight. The latter are best when you have visual idea of their location.

 

I have another question: when should I jam? And when shouldn't I? This part is still not entirely clear.

 

With the silly magical jammers we have atm the rule of thumb is whether you want to be sneaky ninja or not. If you don't care about broadcasting your presence to the enemy then you should be jamming because it'll deny them information. If you want to be a ninja then better not use it. It's also recommended to turn it off when fighting against radar guided missiles.

[DarkFire]

It's also recommended to turn it off when fighting against radar guided missiles.

 

Why is this the case? I'm not disagreeing, I'm curious. Doesn't ECM have the same effect on the radar of active missiles as it does on fighter or SAM radars?

[TAW_Blaze]

Why is this the case? I'm not disagreeing, I'm curious. Doesn't ECM have the same effect on the radar of active missiles as it does on fighter or SAM radars?

 

Well they could fly HoJ in that case, but also notch is not very effective when you have ECM on. I don't recall how exactly it works in game because I haven't been flying much but it's not bad practice to do it. In case you're engaged with someone and he has support incoming but not quite close enough you could leave the ECM on to deny them information.

[DarkFire]

Well they could fly HoJ in that case' date=' but also notch is not very effective when you have ECM on. I don't recall how exactly it works in game because I haven't been flying much but it's not bad practice to do it. In case you're engaged with someone and he has support incoming but not quite close enough you could leave the ECM on to deny them information.[/quote']

 

Ah, good point on the HoJ launch, I hadn't thought about that. It'd be interesting to know if the Eagle radar can correlate RWR emission sources with radar track files as an anti-notch feature.

[GGTharos]

No, but it keeps the radar track file for however many frames you asked it to store (0 to 3). Corellation with RWR may happen for other reasons, ie. NCTR. None of this is done in-game though.

[probad]

Thanks, it makes sense! So I will only turn it on when over SAM city.

 

Also, could someone please remind me of the HI vs MED rule? Which one is for below 40 nm and which one is for longer ranges?

 

this kind of fixed rule based thinking is gonna kill you more surely than anything else.

 

and blaze's post about prf usage is still waiting for you on page 1 :noexpression:

 

i really recommend you just go out and fly more against people and just watch what they do; a lot of these things only come from experience and they have to be evaluated on a case by case basis. you'll get a qualitative feel for how effective (or ineffective) these systems are in different scenarios when you are on the receiving end and only then you will really know how to employ them yourself.

it's something like, if you need to ask, you dont need to know, and when you need to know, you won't need to ask.

Edited March 4, 2016 by probad

[TAW_Blaze]

Observing what the other guys do in the hopes of learning something is tricky. Most often they will do things they themselves don't really understand. You have to be careful in that, just because you did something and it didn't work, it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Don't forget this works the other way around too. You can do something horribly idiotic and still get away with it. Obviously the start is rough but later on you'll be able to better understand what happened either after watching tacview or throughout the flight itself. For as long as you aren't sure, you should definitely ask others to review your acmi and see what their opinion is.

[probad]

right, it's not just about watching your own engagements in tacview. half the time im reviewing how more experienced players manage their engagements. but at least if we were reviewing a specific engagement here we'd have some concrete things to talk about.

 

that aside though you're saying what im trying to get at too, you have to buy the understanding with time and experience. doing things wrong can have a silver lining because you can also see just how much you can get away with playing things dirty sometimes and you will also get a better appreciation for why the right way is right.

 

im also not sure why op seems so averse to experimenting in a video game where there are literally no consequences to messing up other than having to start up and get back in the air again.

Edited March 4, 2016 by probad

[Reflected]

After having died a dozen times more, a few more questions have arisen:

 

The AI SU27 fires a missile at about the same time I reach the max range of the AMRAAM. So I fire too, and as soon as it's pitbull, I defend. However, no sooner I evade one missile he already fires another one, and another one. He pins me down on the defensive and I have no chance to turn my nose on him. I usually end up with no altitude or speed.

 

I've read somewhere that Russian missiles are like the Sparrow, so you need to maintain radar contact. Is this true? So if we fire at the same time, I don't have to evade, because while my AMRAAM will be pitbull, he has to defend and thus break lock? :huh:

 

Very confusing stuff... I've been trying to go online, but the server with reasonable settings and pings is usually empty (TAW) when I join and I have a hard time even finding people.

[Bushmanni]

You need to know when to be defensive and how much while putting pressure on the other guy to force him defensive. Missile fired at you from max range is only threat if you keep flying straight. Only go defensive (turn nose away from the bandit so much that you break radar lock) when you actually need to in order to avoid getting hit. When you have trashed the bandits missile go offensive right away and shoot a missile at him. He may shoot a missile also but you should have enough time to get a missile off before going defensive again. AI is easily scared defensive if you know what you are doing.

 

You are right about the Russian missiles and the AMRAAM but that situation won't always be true. If the Flanker fires at you first from high altitude and speed, you might not have time to wait to pitbull until his missile impacts. Especially if he cranks while you fly straight at him. But then again these kind of shots are taken from so far away that you should be able to dodge the missile by making a weave by changing the crank to opposite sides. At closer range (less than 8nm) you can go defensive right away after shooting your missile while the Flanker has to keep guiding if he wants his missiles to hit and takes a hit from your missile. If the Flanker goes defensive you should immediately turn at him and keep firing missiles until one hits or you get in gun range.

 

The basic principle is to know the capabilities of all the missiles, your own and the bandits and then getting as close to the bandit as you can to shoot you own missiles while staying far enough so you can dodge the ones the bandit shoots. Force the other guy defensive by defeating his missile faster and shooting your next shot before the bandit. You might need to have several rounds of shoot-evade cycles before the bandit takes a hit or goes defensive (or you merge). AI will usually take a hit from the first or second missile though.

[TAW_Blaze]

When trying to learn you should push yourself rather than play it safe. Try something totally ridiculous and then see if it works or not. The tough part here is that you probably don't really know what should work and if it didn't then how you should adapt. I'll try to give a few pointers here but honestly this is something you have to figure out for yourself.

 

- Don't fire from Rmax. Almost no chance of ever hitting, considered a waste even for a defensive shot.

 

- Focus on your plan. Don't let the opponent freak you out by throwing useless missiles in your face, they aren't a threat. If I had a dollar for every time I made someone turn around with 0 pk launches I would be rich as ****. I even had a few where I had no missiles whatsoever but I still made the guy turn around multiple (!) times. The only way to counter these troll launches is by having a very strong presence of mind and SA. Most people have neither.

 

- Whenever someone fires at you first you have to find out where he's attacking from. If it looks too close or there's no information you should go with whatever your gut is telling you. If you're on the defensive and there's no indication that the threat is either dead or given up on you it's best to assume he's chasing you with full burners. I kid you not this is what 90% of the people do on the server. They will chase you and they won't care if the entire airforce is targeting their ass. If you're confident that he should be far enough from you to reengage then you probably should. Otherwise get the **** out of there.

 

- I'll simplify this to oblivion but basically your fight plan should come down to 2 things. Energy and closure. Relative energy within a given fight is often irreversible because if the guy has it over you it's a low chance he'll just sit pretty while you climb above him. That said usually you should try your best to minimize energy deficit in any given fight before the shooting starts. If you have the advantage you should aim to keep it. Flying in contrails is a matter of confidence / SA. If you don't have control of the airspace it's probably not a good idea.

 

Closure you can control better. You do this by cranking. Generally you never want to fly directly towards a guy who can fire something at you. Flying straight at him will give his missiles the highest closure and the least amount of time for you to react to anything that happens. Obviously flying straight at the guy or doing an intercept course will likely give your missile the best chances too. You want to balance this out by turning towards him when you shoot and cranking the rest of the flight. If your range is closing down you might have to completely turn around to outrun his shot or try to defeat it's guidance.

 

Forget about the "wat do" thinking and get your mind to think about these things. If you flew against a guy and he kicked your ass you should be thinking how the hell you can make it harder for his missile to reach you while yours still has a chance to kill.

 

Flying anywhere below 200 ping is usually acceptable so don't mind having shit pings.

[DarkFire]

After having died a dozen times more, a few more questions have arisen:

 

The AI SU27 fires a missile at about the same time I reach the max range of the AMRAAM. So I fire too, and as soon as it's pitbull, I defend. However, no sooner I evade one missile he already fires another one, and another one. He pins me down on the defensive and I have no chance to turn my nose on him. I usually end up with no altitude or speed.

 

I've read somewhere that Russian missiles are like the Sparrow, so you need to maintain radar contact. Is this true? So if we fire at the same time, I don't have to evade, because while my AMRAAM will be pitbull, he has to defend and thus break lock? :huh:

 

Very confusing stuff... I've been trying to go online, but the server with reasonable settings and pings is usually empty (TAW) when I join and I have a hard time even finding people.

 

Let me offer some comments from the perspective of the Flanker driver as it's my usual ride.

 

Yes it's true that to hit a target with my R-27ER I have to continually maintain lock on it because the R-27ER is a SARH missile as opposed to the active radar AIM-120. That being said, as it currently stands the R-27ER and AIM-120C appear to have nearly identical range. The advantage I have is that my R-27ER both accelerates more quickly and reaches a higher top speed than the AIM-120 does.

 

What you describe about having to dodge consecutive R-27ER launches and being forced to constantly be on the defensive is the ideal situation from the perspective of the Su-27 driver. Unfortunately for him (but fortunately for you) the R-27ER is incredibly sensitive to chaff. Literally dump a few bundles and the missile is very likely to be decoyed. The same is very definitely not true of the AIM-120C which has excellent countermeasure rejection.

 

What you need to do is to have and maintain energy advantage over the Flanker, and under no circumstances get sucked in to a WVR turning fight because in an old-school dogfight the Su-27 has enormous advantages, namely the off-bore capability of the R-73 and a helmet mounted sight. The Flanker will also handily out-turn an Eagle at anything below about 6,000 m altitude.

 

If you can evade the R-27ER spam by decoying the missiles, launch your AIM-120 and then crank, all while maintaining an energy advantage, you stand an excellent chance of coming out victorious.

 

The other thing you need to be aware of is that just because your RWR goes silent doesn't mean that the enemy Flanker can't see you: his electro-optical targeting system can see and track you from anything out to 25+Km if you're in afterburner.

[RoflSeal]

Remember that if you break lock with the AMRAAM, it will still head towards the last known trajectory and go maddog (lock the first thing in sight)

[probad]

Very confusing stuff...

the reason its confusing is mainly because it's a highly dynamic environment and any number of very real reasons will turn these generalities upside-down.

 

eagles outturning flankers and flankers that simply roll off amraams to keep guiding their 27ers in are all very real things you will encounter once you throw in humans of varying abilities behind the planes. being fixated too much with theory will only make you more confused when these exceptional cases hit you (in fact its probably more fair to say these are the norm in the mp scene).

 

to be effective you need think aggressive, you need to be aggressive in trying different tactics to get your kill, and you need to be aggressive in prosecuting your tactic.

Edited March 9, 2016 by probad