MBot Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) Came across some interesting numbers on air-air missiles during Desert Storm. F-15: AIM-9: 12 launches/8 kills ( 67%) AIM-7: 67 launches/23 kills ( 34%) F-16: AIM-9: 36 launches/0 kills ( 0%) F-14 and F/A-18: AIM-9: 38 launches/2 kills (5,3%) AIM-7: 21 launches/1 kill (4,8%) Apparently 20 Sidewinder launches by F-16 were made accidentally, which is pretty amazing. But even disregarding that, the Viper and Hornet strikers seem the have shot a lot of Sidewinders in vain. Edited February 29, 2016 by MBot Removed "pk"
VIKBELL Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 Wow I would have thought their pK would be much higher, especially the F-16. There are 2 categories of fighter pilots: those who have performed, and those who someday will perform, a magnificent defensive break turn toward a bug on the canopy. Robert Shaw
OxideMako Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 Is there any reason why the F-15 would be so much more effective than other types?
Sweep Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 Wow I would have thought their pK would be much higher, especially the F-16. Overall Pk amounts are not everything. Here's a good example: You fire 2 missiles at 1 target, say you splash it --> AFAIK, for the bean-counters, that's "one hit, one miss". There're other things too: out of DLZ shots, miscommunication (bad tgt sort = loads of AAMs away), etc. Lord of Salt
*Rage* Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 Pk is not for public consumption. It is meaningless in this regard as a comparative tool. It only has relevance in reproducible test environments. ie the above Pks tell you nothing about the missile capabilities. There is no context. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22
GGTharos Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 It had plenty of meaning, just not necessarily what people want it to mean. You're exactly right, it has to be taken in context. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
GGTharos Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 Is there any reason why the F-15 would be so much more effective than other types? One possible reason is exclusive training for air to air and destruction of targets. A viper or hornet might just be interested in pursuing it's opponent out of the way while heading to a ground target. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Basher54321 Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) Apparently 20 Sidewinder launches by F-16 were made accidentally, which is pretty amazing. But even disregarding that, the Viper and Hornet strikers seem the have shot a lot of Sidewinders in vain. For PK you want missiles actually fired ( attempts ) at another aircraft during actual engagements. Not aware F-16s attempted any AIM-9 shots at Iraqi (or other) aircraft. IIRC the accidental firings on the F-16 were due to the way the avionics were set up - and this was promptly changed. Have seen those figures before - have you pulled those from BVR Promise and Reality? Edited February 29, 2016 by Basher54321 1
MBot Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 Removed the letters pk from initial post, lets simply discuss the amount of missiles fired versus kills.
Basher54321 Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Overall figures might be correct from his source gwaps - although it covers Desert Shield as well. Be good to see the actual breakdown though you would think some must have been fired during A-A training (2500+ sorties) for pilot benefit.
mvsgas Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 ...But even disregarding that, the Viper and Hornet strikers seem the have shot a lot of Sidewinders in vain. Not in vain, if it allows them to continue to strike, egress or provides time for escorts to engage enemy aircraft. ... lets simply discuss the amount of missiles fired versus kills. Missiles miss for many reasons, some I would think; - Pilot inexperience (which can lead to some of the things mention by Sweep) - Missions and intent ( what I was saying together with what GG posted) - malfunctions (missiles, aircraft's or both) - Training on both sides etc. Wow I would have thought their pK would be much higher, especially the F-16. Why would the F-16 have higher PK? Radars, missiles, pilot training, equipment, etc. available back then not the same as now. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
mvsgas Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Overall figures might be correct from his source gwaps - although it covers Desert Shield as well. Be good to see the actual breakdown though you would think some must have been fired during A-A training (2500+ sorties) for pilot benefit. They don't fire that many for training, to expensive. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Sryan Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Wow I would have thought their pK would be much higher, especially the F-16. F-16's didn't score a single kill in desert storm. And never destroyed an aicraft in combat before it in the service of the USAF either. But they did take down 2 fighters when enforcing the subsequent no-fly zone. But thas all been done with AIM120's wich we do not seem to discuss. Check my F-15C guide
MBot Posted March 1, 2016 Author Posted March 1, 2016 If F-16 didn't shoot at a single enemy and all 36 Sidewinders were shot in error, it makes it even more amazing. I certainly wasnt't aware that initially there were such big problems with HOTAS. Unfortunately the data for the F-14 and F/A-18 are accumulated, would be interesting to separate it. Apparently Hornets were flying a lot of escort for Navy strike packages initially, so missile launches to drive the enemy off would make sense, at least for Sparrow. The amount of launched Sidewinders seems to be excessive though. Did the Hornets have similar problems with accidential weapons launches?
Basher54321 Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 If F-16 didn't shoot at a single enemy and all 36 Sidewinders were shot in error, it makes it even more amazing. I certainly wasnt't aware that initially there were such big problems with HOTAS. Keith Rosenkranz stated it happened to one pilot twice in the space of a week (IIRC). The pilot dropped his bombs (assume CCRP mode) and then switched to an AA mode via the throttle - but both times he still had his thumb down on the pickle button so the AIM-9 let fly. This is very serious if you consider Fratricide!! 36 times in 13,000+ sorties - maybe - but I'm still not convinced about the F-16 and 36 fired. If I can find a reference that states what platform fired how many in gwaps I will try to find out more.
mvsgas Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 If F-16 didn't shoot at a single enemy and all 36 Sidewinders were shot in error, it makes it even more amazing. I certainly wasnt't aware that initially there were such big problems with HOTAS. Unfortunately the data for the F-14 and F/A-18 are accumulated, would be interesting to separate it. Apparently Hornets were flying a lot of escort for Navy strike packages initially, so missile launches to drive the enemy off would make sense, at least for Sparrow. The amount of launched Sidewinders seems to be excessive though. Did the Hornets have similar problems with accidential weapons launches? Accidental releasing of weapons from aircraft happens more often than it should. From F-16 dropping BDU-33 to F-117. If we carried dummy missiles with rocket motors in training, we would have a lot of those fire as well. I'm not sure about the validity of any of these reports but its hard to find examples. http://pilotonline.com/news/military/other-cases-of-accidental-bomb-drops/article_847cb2ca-783a-5da0-acf2-c6a469747316.html https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19991218&id=TDIzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jQgGAAAAIBAJ&pg=3428,4725879&hl=en http://www.fighterpilotuniversity.com/alumni-house/alumni-news/usn-downs-usaf/ To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
mvsgas Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) I posted this before but, AFD-100927-065 Gulf War Air Power has a lot of those numbers. ( Sortie count, missions type by aircraft, etc) 36 times in 13,000+ sorties - maybe - but I'm still not convinced about the F-16 and 36 fired. .27% off accidental release AAM, I agree, sounds like average to me Edited March 1, 2016 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
blkspade Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Umm wasn't it in desert storm where the F-16 was both the first to use the Aim-120, and get a kill with it? http://104thphoenix.com/
Basher54321 Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Umm wasn't it in desert storm where the F-16 was both the first to use the Aim-120, and get a kill with it? No that was after Desert Storm - 27th Dec 92
Emu Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 Is there any reason why the F-15 would be so much more effective than other types? I can't remember the reason but there was a problem with accidental launches on the F-16s I think. So there was literally no possibility of a kill, as there was no target on many of the launches. The F-15 pilots were arguably better trained and also had NCTR radar capability for BVR shots. I think these are the full stats: http://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aakill/By%20Weapon/
Emu Posted October 15, 2016 Posted October 15, 2016 Wow I would have thought their pK would be much higher, especially the F-16. It often isn't the missile's fault. F-16s had a known problem that caused accidental launches and pilot training is also an issue. The F-15 pilots had the best training at the time, so their figures are probably more representative of the actual missiles.
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