Weapon effectiveness.

[paulca]

So I feel I am starting to learn how the campaign missions work in the A10C.

 

However, the default load outs are a bit rubbish. 2xD 2xH Mavericks, 2 Mk82Air, 2 CBU87.

 

So, while the missions do have a few truck parks with the odd APC in them they aren't really a priority target. The tank groups are.

 

Now I took out 4 of 6 lead tanks with the mavericks and my wingman got another. For the final tank in that group I dropped 2xCBU87 on his head, seen good effect, followed up by dropping the Mk82As are close as I could (less than 30 yards) and followed by emptying my cannon straight on him in two passes.

 

... he still drove off without so much as a scratch.

 

So what is the point of the CBU87? And surely 1000+ rounds of CM straight down on a MTB tank from under 1nm should kill or at least make it smoke!

 

As I keep forgetting to change my load out I had to RTB to refuel and rearm with 4xCBU97s and 6 D Mavericks. Then the fun actually started as the CBU97s have a chance to kill 2, 3, or 4 tanks with one bomb!

 

Are CBU87's only really of use against un-armoured targets or are they broken? If the CBU87s and the Mk82A are provided for hitting the truck parks etc. Then the mission will be very, very difficult without going to re-arm a few times.

 

Also...

 

Are the NATO tanks made out of wet cardboard? I ran out of weapons and there was one single russian tank awaiting my 2 advancing columns of 3 units each. That one soviet tank killed all 6. It doesn't feel very realistic if I have to kill everything for them and they get taken completely out by one single tank!

 

In frustration I used my final weapon, the plane itself and hit him square in the face with my A10. He STILL drove off without a scratch!

Edited March 15, 2016 by paulca

[Darkwolf]

Moving tanks are easy targets for a static tank. :)

[Hansolo]

The CBU-87 are for infantry and sofskinned vehicles. As you have already found out the CBU-97 are more suited for armour.

 

If you go to the public section of the 476th vFG you can find a ton of weapons information;

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=cat&id=43

 

Cheers

Hans

Edited March 15, 2016 by Hansolo
Spelling error

[Cik]

the trick is to use the right weapon for the job. AFAIK all the campaign missions are going to be primarily busting armor. don't bother taking anti-infantry weapons, instead, truck PGMs and other efficient anti-armor weapons.

 

i recommend something like (left to right)

 

2x AIM-9m

LITENING pod

AGM-65D

GBU-38

GBU-38

GBU-12

GBU-38

GBU-38

AGM-65D

rockets of some description

GBU-12

 

100% combat mix

50/50 chaff/flare mix

60-80 percent fuel

 

the trick when making these things is to stay in the 43-45k gross weight area, as the A-10 becomes an enormous slug when loaded close to gross weight limit, and especially if you have a lot of drag (mostly it's the triple racks)

 

you can modify this loadout in a few ways, including adding more mavericks and less everything else, or adding more GBU-12s by using triple mounts on the central pylons. mounting anti-armor clusterbombs (CBU-97, 105) on the wing pylons is also a good idea, if you are fond of those though personally i don't take them in the campaign as usually the enemy is very spread out and it seems to blow up a lot of houses...

 

generally though i'd pretty much never use the "official" loadouts, as you simply cannot do the mission with what they give you. they're fine for COIN or lighter tasking but the campaign is very inflexible; most of the time you're hitting hard armor and pretty much nothing else, and usually quite a bit of it so trucking PGMs is all you can really do.

 

anyway, my advice is to just leave the campaign for now and play the included missions, missions you can find on these forums or the enemy within campaign. they're more fun IMO, for many reasons which i won't get into here.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Cik

[paulca]

I pretty much figured this was the case, thanks guys.

 

What is it with game designers? It's like one team programmes the game paying attention to the details of the simulation and realism, then another team of monkeys creates the content to be as realistic as an ashtray on a motorbike? The Su25T was the same!

 

I like the CBU-97 as the tanks typically come in groups of 3. If you drop the CBU97 on the middle tank you have about a 99% change of killing it a 60% of killing 2 or them and a 30% of getting lucky and killing all 3. It saves 2 mavericks. The CBU97 works well from high alt dropped CCRP on a TGP target or dropped CCIP from a dive pinned on the TDC.

 

Anyway, at least the A10C has SEAD flights you can call in while getting on station and scoping stuff out. In the Su25 you can't scope stuff out until you are on top of it and there are very seldom any SEAD cover flights and usually when there are they spend 2 minutes, in and out and leave most of the AAA and SAM threat behind.

 

I have completed about 50% of the single missions to date and am switching between training flights (either navigation for fun, dumb bomb practice or general weapons practice), single missions and the campaign.

 

Once I'm done with that I might go for the Enemy Within or the Flight qualification campaign, assuming it goes back on sale. Then I'm undecided if I should go for the Ka-50 or Combined arms. Plenty ahead of me anyway.

 

Is there anyway to refuel and rearm your wingman?

[paulca]

Oh.. yes... houses.

 

It did occur to me that dropping a cluster munition on a build up area might be a bit unsavoury, but it's a game and it gave me a chuckle.

 

If you happen to be in an area with tanks and you hear an A10, if you aren't running as fast as possible to be as far away from any vehicle, you are asking for trouble.

[Hansolo]

Is there anyway to refuel and rearm your wingman?

IIRRC then no. Then only thing you may do is to order WM to hold at a certain area, then you fly back for re-arm and refuel. On the return order him to rejoin.

 

I seem to recall that in mission with tanker you can ask WM to go to tanker, but there IMHO isn't a way to order WM to re-arm and return to AO.

 

Cheers

Hans

[Nooch]

Based on what I heard in the recent Q&A with a real A-10 pilot (link below), you should start firing the gun at no more than 0.7 NM if you want to kill tanks. Preferably shooting the sides and rear. But even then you are not going to destroy the tank completely and make it blow up. But in real life inflicting some damage is often enough. If either the engine, the aiming or the firing mechanism is damaged then you did your job, the tank has been rendered useless. The problem is that in the sim this kind of damage isn't modelled. Either the tank has full capability or is completely destroyed.

 

About CBU-87s, this kind of behavior is normal. You have to drop a lot of cluster munitions together in order to destroy armor. And oftentimes the damage is only partial. So in order to have better anti armor capability, CBU-97s are used.

 

A-10 Q&A http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2637329&postcount=70

[StrongHarm]

Once you get your TTP (tactics techniques procedures) together on the cannon, it can be very effective against tanks, even T90s. As previously stated, your distance and angle from the tank when you fire has a big impact on penetration due to simulated ablative armor.

 

I created the tutorial mission Tank Busting 101, to provide cannon TTP as well as a reliably repeatable practice environment. It includes checklists and voice acting. Be aware of the F10 menu. When I first started using this mission I could take out maybe 2 tanks (if I was lucky) before going for a reload. Now I can take out all 16 in a single load. The first 8 tanks are non-aggressive so you can work on your TTP without worrying about getting shot. The 2nd wave are aggressive and will light you up if you're not careful. Once you learn how to avoid their HMGs it's pretty easy though. Sometimes I'll orbit them close just to practice avoiding fire. I now only get hit if I take my eyes off them.

 

Concerning cluster bombs; apparently they are used indiscriminately in some cases.. I was surprised (see vid below). I favor CBU-105s at 800m HOF, though they seem to be much less effective than they were in earlier versions.

 

[ame=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=86e_1455565360]LiveLeak.com - SU-34 attacks Haritan with two cluster bomb strikes[/ame]

[paulca]

As to avoiding fire I have also been practising. Circling and playing with AAA Zsus and the like at 1,000ft. Just wait for the fire to come up and then not be where it's aimed, when it gets there be somewhere else. I suppose the easiest way would be to fly in a randomised zig zag jinking this way and that like a soldier having to run across the open under fire. It's much more fun watching the tracers and flying around them.

 

I also play with SA-11s from long range. You can lead them around like little puppies until they are almost out of all energy then just "step out of the way" at the last minute. Though ... It wasn't the one I was watching and playing with last night that hit me and took both wings off :( It was the other one I hadn't seen, LOL

 

What gets me every time though are the MGs on vehicles when I bear down on them with the gun. They don't fire at all until I get carried away and am right in their face and then they take out an engine and a bunch of systems with the first shot. So I now discipline myself and not get carried away.

 

6nm, good TGP, maverick won't lock. 4nm, maverick still won't lock... 3... 2... to hell with this I can practically read his newspaper, "Guns, Guns, Guns!" Of course by the time you get the pipper on the target again you are at 0.5nm. A 3 second burst later you are flying through your own ricochets and usually adding grass stains to the under side of the plane.

 

The tank... hits your engine on the first shot and... drives off unharmed.

Edited March 15, 2016 by paulca

[Mad Dog 7.62]

I have always felt the gun was not as effective as it should be against tanks. I have seen A-10 strafing runs up close and personal, and I know how effective they can be, and how tightly concentrated and accurate the impacts are. I have also seen the damage they do to armor. I will never believe the gun in the game is as effective as the real world article.

[StrongHarm]

My TTP for engaging high threat vehicles is to turn in at 5000ft and 2nm. They have a hard time tracking you quick enough to get off a shot if you do it right. On egress I bank out at 45deg so I'm between the axis and watch for tracers. When I see a stream that will most likely be in my vector, I just apply a touch of rudder. It's all in Tank Busting 101 if you're interested in my procedures. They are most likely not accurate to RL, but they work very well for me.

[DirtyFret]

My TTP for engaging high threat vehicles is to turn in at 5000ft and 2nm. They have a hard time tracking you quick enough to get off a shot if you do it right. On egress I bank out at 45deg so I'm between the axis and watch for tracers. When I see a stream that will most likely be in my vector, I just apply a touch of rudder. It's all in Tank Busting 101 if you're interested in my procedures. They are most likely not accurate to RL, but they work very well for me.

 

I dont know about the RL effectiveness of the gun / bombs but your Tank Busting 101 mission I can highly recommend. It helped me tremendously.:thumbup:

[Cik]

I pretty much figured this was the case, thanks guys.

 

What is it with game designers? It's like one team programmes the game paying attention to the details of the simulation and realism, then another team of monkeys creates the content to be as realistic as an ashtray on a motorbike? The Su25T was the same!

 

 

making a good campaign is a ton of effort and they probably just didn't have time. anyway, there's quite a few extraordinarily good missions to play for free that are more fun than the campaign, and more if you start playing multiplayer COOP.

 

IMO though, that has always been the downside of DCS. the planes, wonderful, but everything around them is a little.. sparse. we still don't have most of the units we need to make a compelling mission in anything that isn't modern georgia, we're missing lots of SAMs, we're missing a ton of light armor and infantry-portable weapons for the insurgents etc. and most of the airplanes past the A-10 and black shark are pretty out of place in georgia.

[StrongHarm]

Cik, I would agree that ED needs to add more units in the future, and a dynamic theater will be very welcome. If you look at it objectively though, they're not creating a game like an FPS where physics and objects are based upon repeatable static code. They're building a simulation foundation that will in ten years be something so epic in scale that no other company will have the time or resources to build it's equivalent within a reasonable period of time. This is a lofty and complicated task. I admire the fact that they aren't taking shortcuts. I say this not in opposition to your words, but as a reminder that DCS is bigger than the last update or module. I often have to remind myself. I can say that I've been flying DCS for 7 years and I've never once been bored. There's never been anything like it in my opinion.

 

DirtyFret, I'm glad Tank Busting 101 helped you as much as it helped me. I was going to keep the mission to myself as I didn't think anyone else would find it useful, but then decided to put some voice acting and TTP in it and put it in userfiles, just in case. I was surprised when I learned that a lot of people fly it regularly.

[baltic_dragon]

 

I have completed about 50% of the single missions to date and am switching between training flights (either navigation for fun, dumb bomb practice or general weapons practice), single missions and the campaign.

 

Once I'm done with that I might go for the Enemy Within or the Flight qualification campaign, assuming it goes back on sale. Then I'm undecided if I should go for the Ka-50 or Combined arms. Plenty ahead of me anyway.

 

Is there anyway to refuel and rearm your wingman?

 

Depending what you need, Flight Qualification Campaign is very good for learning and testing a lot of new skills, Enemy Within should also push some of the things you have learned before quite far, at least that is the feedback I've got so far.

 

making a good campaign is a ton of effort and they probably just didn't have time. anyway, there's quite a few extraordinarily good missions to play for free that are more fun than the campaign, and more if you start playing multiplayer COOP.

 

IMO though, that has always been the downside of DCS. the planes, wonderful, but everything around them is a little.. sparse. we still don't have most of the units we need to make a compelling mission in anything that isn't modern georgia, we're missing lots of SAMs, we're missing a ton of light armor and infantry-portable weapons for the insurgents etc. and most of the airplanes past the A-10 and black shark are pretty out of place in georgia.

 

Yes, creating a campaign takes a lot of time and effort, especially if you want everything to work well, you spend insane amount of time on triggers, scripting events, thinking what might go wrong, testing and improving ;) I also agree we would need more assets, though honestly with a little creativity you can get A LOT out of DCS in its current stage.

 

Also, with some creativity you can find a good reason to put many planes in Georgia, wait for the new campaign from Apach500 where he places Mig-15 and Sabre in modern times!

 

And coming back to the topic - yes, the weapons should be improved, especially rockets. It has been discussed a lot before and I am sure it will get some much needed attention at some point!

 

And kudos to StrongHarm for his Tank Busting mission, great way to learn how to kill tanks & jink effectively!

[Hansolo]

to hell with this I can practically read his newspaper, "Guns, Guns, Guns!" Of course by the time you get the pipper on the target again you are at 0.5nm. A 3 second burst later you are flying through your own ricochets and usually adding grass stains to the under side of the plane.

To avoid flying into your ricochets execute your Safe Escape Maneuver. In case your dive angle is less then ~25º then use TLT or TRN.

At higher dive angles use CLM.

 

Cheers

Hans

A-10 Safe Escape Maneuvers.pdf

[paulca]

To avoid flying into your ricochets execute your Safe Escape Maneuver. In case your dive angle is less then ~25º then use TLT or TRN.

At higher dive angles use CLM.

 

Cheers

Hans

 

Cool. In lay-mans terms,

 

Don't hit the ground and jink... or jink first but don't hit the ground. :)

[paulca]

The CBU-105 works well. Using the SEAD flights and CAP to make the area fairly safe, I've taken to orbiting until I pick out 2, 3 or 4 groups of armor, then drop 2, 3 or 4 CBU-105s. Try and get the wingman to do the same, but it's barely more useful than a wet rotting cabbage sometimes TBH. I may as well say, "2, Fly around the target area, pretend to attack but don't, then make sure and get shot at a lot."

 

Then I pick the rest I missed with mavericks. Refuel/rearm, order the troops I'm escorting forward and do actual support while they advance through the stuff I missed.

[StrongHarm]

Good to hear the 105s did the trick. What did you set your HOF at?

 

In beta the magic number was HOF 1800 dropped from above 15k, IRC. A few versions ago it was HOF 1000 from above 12k. I'm now playing with HOF 800 and as long as I'm above 10k AGL it seems effective.

 

Has anyone tested HOF enough in the new versions to contribute empirical data?

REMINDER:Empirical (adjective) - based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic (antonym:theoretical)

In other words (and I say this with kindness); please respond if you've tested HOF in 1.5 or 2.0 and have results. There are a lot of great opinions on these boards, but in this case theories are like screendoors on submarines.

[paulca]

I was dropping them from 12k-15k with the default 1800 HOF. Each one took out 2 or 3 tanks.

 

The only issue is convincing the wing man to drop his. I ordered him to attack armor at my SPI with guided bombs, I checked on him 5 minutes later and he was flying around the armor group in circles. He had apparently dropped one CBU, but was stuck in a loop, braking down to low speed turning in, saying "running in", then just accelerating and carrying on round the loop again. I watched him do 2 or 3 complete orbits like this without dropping anything. There were still armor targets below.

[Xavven]

I checked on him 5 minutes later and he was flying around the armor group in circles. He had apparently dropped one CBU, but was stuck in a loop, braking down to low speed turning in, saying "running in", then just accelerating and carrying on round the loop again. I watched him do 2 or 3 complete orbits like this without dropping anything. There were still armor targets below.

 

This is a problem with all AI right now. I put a flight of enemy SU-24M's on a SEAD run, and they fire their HARM missiles just fine, but when it comes time to clean up, they do this orbit/running-in dance for 5 to 10 minutes before finally firing their cannon at anything.

[paulca]

This is a problem with all AI right now. I put a flight of enemy SU-24M's on a SEAD run, and they fire their HARM missiles just fine, but when it comes time to clean up, they do this orbit/running-in dance for 5 to 10 minutes before finally firing their cannon at anything.

 

Yea. :( Also noticed my wingman doing another strange thing.

 

"2, attach ground targets at my SPI with <anything but maverick>"

"2, roger"

"2, engaging targets"

... 1 second later ...

"2, rejoin"

"2, RTB"

 

Thankfully he doesn't actually RTB and will rejoin and reattck, but it seems he refuses most attacks but is fairly happy with mavericks and guns work more often than not.

 

I am doing missions in the mountains, thought this might be why, maybe he can't do his prefered run in with some weapons in some terrains. <shrug>

 

I bought the Enemy Within campaign, so that has filled my St. Paddy's well and truely. Feels much better than the default campaign so far.

[Cik]

it's best not to rely on the AI at all if you can manage it. if you have to travel a little heavier than you otherwise should, so be it. if you expect heavy enemy resistance, load heavy and then 'front-load' your engagement if necessary; if you have guys TIC you can drop more bombs than you might otherwise to ensure lots of initial kills and lighten your aircraft so you can be as agile as you need to be on the followup gun/rocket passes.

[paulca]

I typically try and send him in on a "kill air defenses" pass before me. I like him that much! However he often does a pretty good job at spotting MANPADs and ZSUs on trucks that I miss on my recon.

 

That and when I have made a run in and see I left stuff behind, I order him in for a go while I orbit. However I often have to wait a considerable time in the orbit for him to make a pass. Sometimes I give up on him and go back in myself.

 

As he seems to do better with Mavs and Guns I might just give him as many mavs as I can (6?) and leave it at that.