BVR Extend and Re-Engage Thoughts

[bberendts]

I've been reading a lot of BVR info lately and trying a lot of stuff - I still stink. However, in a 1v2 situation I can splash one, crank, descend, extend and re-engage. Doing some quick math - if I'm being followed (AI) at 1.0M, then I'm guessing I need to extend 50-60nm from the enemy plane before I turn hot again. This gives me about a minute to re-acquire the target before he's approaching Rmax. I'm assuming a lot of constants, but does 50-60nm seem excessive or not enough distance when extending?

[Svend_Dellepude]

Why not just kill both at the same time?

[pr1malr8ge]

Extending all depends on what you're fighting and if your enemy is chasing you, and if you have support.

 

If you have a significant advantage in speed and climb rate you could extend and gain altitude enough where you might get away with just a 20nm extension. This would be in the relm of say a mig21.

 

If you have the ability to terrain mask you could most defiantly cut that extension by a considerable amount.

 

Then if you have support I.e. ability to fly to sam cover or have a flight you can fly to that can engage your bogy will then free you up to re-engage.

 

Keep in mind though if you're flying against an openent that is in an active tail chase and you're not gaining significant ground on him/her/it then generally speaking 50-60nm may not be in the cards. At this point you need to seek sam support/ flight support/ terrain, because as soon as you start to turn offensive you're going to have a missile heading your way. By the way if you're in this situation and you run 50-60nm you should RTB as you most likely would have burned a good chunk if not all of your fuel.

[Bushmanni]

Max effective firing range is between 6-20nm, depending on altitude. When you are extending, you usually do it at low altitude to shorten the range of pursuers missiles so the required firing range is about 6-10nm. You need some additional range to allow for scanning with radar to build a picture so you can make a wise targeting decision. Scanning takes about 15s which needs about 5 miles. You also need maybe 1 mile for U-turn so your desired range to bandits is about 12-16 NM before re-commit, depending on altitude.

[pr1malr8ge]

Max effective firing range is between 6-20nm, depending on altitude. When you are extending, you usually do it at low altitude to shorten the range of pursuers missiles so the required firing range is about 6-10nm. You need some additional range to allow for scanning with radar to build a picture so you can make a wise targeting decision. Scanning takes about 15s which needs about 5 miles. You also need maybe 1 mile for U-turn so your desired range to bandits is about 12-16 NM before re-commit, depending on altitude.

 

 

We are talking about DCS, a tail chase will NEVER have a 20nm reach. as far as extending yes you usually do do it low at first for the first few miles. Even against a Su27. In the OPs statement he does say ~1nm. In this case even against any oponent he has some MAJOR issues and an about face extension is probably not exactly an option [atleast in MP]. How ever for sake of what should be done in an about face extend [3-5mile seperation] against a su27 for the first bit of speed pickup you should be low and eyes glued to your 6 watching for that ET shot. [if it does happen chop throttle flare, jink 10-15* flare again then back full AB] as you start opening the gap and either you know he has no more Heaters you need to run and gain altitude. With the f15 its magical how it can accell while climbing. Nothing like running from a su27 with 60% or less fuel and light on load out. from the deck once you hit M1.1-2 you can pitch up .5-1.0*[5-10 on hud] and keep on accelerating and with altitude reducing your fuel flow. With DCS's missiles being crap if you're 6+nm and opening nothing but an ET can smack you if you're not watching for it.

 

Just for perspective, I've ran from many su27s like this and ended up at m2+ 60k ft while they unloaded their rails and never touched me. It's the ET's that I watch for. and they are easy to spot and only need a slight minor correction and only a brief idle power chop with flare and never loose any speed or gap. Will say though it may not work against another f15 though as they can power up with you obviously but if I'm going up against an f15 I'm not planning on letting the gap get less then 8nm if I'm going to about face extend.

 

on a flip side, if someone runs from me, I do the exact same thing. I will climb it will allow a slight gap to open at first [since I know shooting in a tail option is crap in dcs on the deck it doesn't matter] once I get to 25,000ft I will be gaining on my opponent and will have used a considerable less amount of fuel and unless they have sam cover or running to another flight they will end up dead once the gap closed back to sub 4 miles.

 

And with all of that in any case if I have to about face extend like this it's an RTB as that has effectively killed your combat fuel reserve.

Edited April 5, 2016 by pr1malr8ge

[IASGATG]

I'll be completely honest and say I don't extend. I stay offensive the whole way to the merge. The missiles in the game are junk. I'll crank if we're getting to around the 5nmi range, but I wont get past the 3/9-line, keep eyes on the bandit and then turn back in about about 15 seconds. At this point the missile is either defeated by lost track or defeated by energy loss. 9G break back into the bandit and reattack at now around 3nmi with a Fox3 Fox2 and continue the pull through back to the 3/9-line watching the bandit, if he remains hot he'll die. If he defends break back into and position for the guns fight.

[*Rage*]

^^ Or he kills you.

[IASGATG]

^^ Or he kills you.

 

Yeah maybe, I'd rather be in this position that 5nmi with a bandit on my six.

[Bushmanni]

We are talking about DCS, a tail chase will NEVER have a 20nm reach.

 

I should have been more precise as I meant head on shot range. OP is asking how far he needs to extend in order to re-commit. My distance is based on how much distance you need to the bandit in order to fire at him successfully while still being able to trash the bandits missiles. In practice though you need third party to provide this distance if you are going to base your decision on the distance. In practice you re-commit when you don't have bandits chasing or targeted on you and you consider having necessary distance for what ever moves you try to do. You might recommit the moment the bandit chasing you turns and switches to different target or you keep extending for 10-30 NM to the back of the grinder to provide SA and cover for your extending wingmen.

 

At 40k an AMRAAM will catch you from 20nm away behind if your speed is around 1.1 M and 15 NM if your speed is 1.5M. If you have a bandit chasing you even at long distance like 15 NM it's extremely dangerous to climb to and extend at high altitude as climbing will extend the reach of bandits missiles considerably while you won't be able to increase distance during the climb. High speed high altitude extension is a safe method to bug out though as long as you have enough distance to the bandits (about 20 NM) so they can't engage you while climbing and accelerating. When you get your speed up nobody is able to catch you.

 

I'm not sure what the OP uses as a reference for the 50-60 NM extend as it's obviously too much as a distance to the bandit. If it's a distance to the starting point of extension then it shows a fundamental flaw in his thinking of air combat. All your maneuvers are made in relation to the bandit and your wingmen (except when using terrain as cover but even then your main consideration is the position of the bandit).

 

In 1vs1 you don't extend as IASGATG said as you will end up extending until you or the bandit runs out of fuel or the bandit catches you and shoots you down. In 1vs2 you might take a long range shot at both of the bandits in hope of lucky kill and extend early to provide enough distance to successfully run away from them. In NvsN extending is a viable concept as long as you have a wingman 5-10 NM behind you to kill the bandit chasing you or more likely encouraging the bandit to extend as well. You would merge only when merging with an advantage and there's no other bandits nearby to join the party as when you merge you are committed to killing the bandit or getting killed.

[Frostie]

Just for perspective, I've ran from many su27s like this and ended up at m2+ 60k ft while they unloaded their rails and never touched me. It's the ET's that I watch for. and they are easy to spot and only need a slight minor correction and only a brief idle power chop with flare and never loose any speed or gap. Will say though it may not work against another f15 though as they can power up with you obviously but if I'm going up against an f15 I'm not planning on letting the gap get less then 8nm if I'm going to about face extend.

 

on a flip side, if someone runs from me, I do the exact same thing. I will climb it will allow a slight gap to open at first [since I know shooting in a tail option is crap in dcs on the deck it doesn't matter] once I get to 25,000ft I will be gaining on my opponent and will have used a considerable less amount of fuel and unless they have sam cover or running to another flight they will end up dead once the gap closed back to sub 4 miles.

 

And with all of that in any case if I have to about face extend like this it's an RTB as that has effectively killed your combat fuel reserve.

In a busy server if you don't have a wingman supporting you and giving you a picture then it is NEVER safe to turn back in, period, you just have to hedge your bets.

 

All this airquake mumbo jumbo means nothing when the reality is unless you've got a radar pertruding out of your ass you're never sure what is behind you. Plenty of pilots including myself have thought that they're safe as houses when they turn back in only to get a nasty surprise.

[pr1malr8ge]

In a busy server if you don't have a wingman supporting you and giving you a picture then it is NEVER safe to turn back in, period, you just have to hedge your bets.

 

All this airquake mumbo jumbo means nothing when the reality is unless you've got a radar pertruding out of your ass you're never sure what is behind you. Plenty of pilots including myself have thought that they're safe as houses when they turn back in only to get a nasty surprise.

 

Yes sir you're right. any time I extend in that matter I'm not going to turn back in. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that the likely hood of getting that surprise is inherent.

[pr1malr8ge]

 

At 40k an AMRAAM will catch you from 20nm away behind if your speed is around 1.1 M and 15 NM if your speed is 1.5M. If you have a bandit chasing you even at long distance like 15 NM it's extremely dangerous to climb to and extend at high altitude as climbing will extend the reach of bandits missiles considerably while you won't be able to increase distance during the climb. High speed high altitude extension is a safe method to bug out though as long as you have enough distance to the bandits (about 20 NM) so they can't engage you while climbing and accelerating. When you get your speed up nobody is able to catch you.

 

 

Again you just stated 20nm to 15nm from behind. This is IMPOSSIBLE in DCS! You only need ~6nm seperation to prevent any rear aspect shot from reaching you. Another thing as I said unless you're being chased by another f15 or you have three bags full fuel and full load out, no other aircraft in dcs CAN GAIN on the f15 even when it is climbing. As I said only another f15 in this relm of climbing extension can keep the gap from expanding. At any rate there is more to this type of exit anyways since there are many variables to deal with. I'm talking 1vs1 co altitude and the aggressor at least having to have been defensive at some point or at least at maneuvering speed rather then full bore and sub 5-6nm.

 

As I stated with the op being 1nm from the bandit unless he merges and then goes through the window with out ever turning he's screwed.

[Bushmanni]

Try it. But like I said, you need to be at 40k or higher for it to work. That 6 NM separation keeps you safe only to about 10k feet altitude.

[pr1malr8ge]

Try it. But like I said, you need to be at 40k or higher for it to work. That 6 NM separation keeps you safe only to about 10k feet altitude.

 

 

I have shot against targets at 45+k ft in a tail chase both at low and high alitudes and have never came close to hitting them.

 

BTW my FP is 40+k so I know exactly what the aim120 will do and I can tell you in a tail chase it is not going to fly 40nm and hit. Because a 20nm launch like you say will end up in a Total flight distance of 40nm if not further. BTW it wont do it in a tail chase at 20nm even if that person was climbing VY of m.95

[IASGATG]

In 1vs1 you don't extend as IASGATG said as you will end up extending until you or the bandit runs out of fuel or the bandit catches you and shoots you down. In 1vs2 you might take a long range shot at both of the bandits in hope of lucky kill and extend early to provide enough distance to successfully run away from them. In NvsN extending is a viable concept as long as you have a wingman 5-10 NM behind you to kill the bandit chasing you or more likely encouraging the bandit to extend as well. You would merge only when merging with an advantage and there's no other bandits nearby to join the party as when you merge you are committed to killing the bandit or getting killed.

 

Nah, in 1v2 I don't extend either. What's worse than having one bandit on your close six? Two bandits on your close six.

 

I don't bother shooting at longer ranges either. I'll just press until 6-8nmi and shoot then. No point wasting the ammo.

[Bushmanni]

I have shot against targets at 45+k ft in a tail chase both at low and high alitudes and have never came close to hitting them.

 

BTW my FP is 40+k so I know exactly what the aim120 will do and I can tell you in a tail chase it is not going to fly 40nm and hit. Because a 20nm launch like you say will end up in a Total flight distance of 40nm if not further. BTW it wont do it in a tail chase at 20nm even if that person was climbing VY of m.95

 

You are right, I just did some test firings to check my claims after discovering that the supposed demonstration failed. In the current version absolute max range in said conditions seems to be about 17 NM. ED has actually nerfed the AMRAAM even further from previous versions, at least the high altitude performance. Also the 6 NM range limit is now at 15k instead of 12k. I have included two demonstrations from current version at 15k (6 NM) and 40k (15 NM) and an acmi from legacy DCS version just to show that it used to be possible to get at 20 NM. Max range is only achievable by maddoging the missile as firing it with M-link will cause the missile to maneuver excessively and fall well short of its potential. 17 NM shot would require pretty much perfect aim for the maddod shot for the missile to reach the target.

Missile range test.zip

[SinusoidDelta]

Interesting, I used to get 20nm+ kills with the AIM-120C, head on before DCS 1.5.

[bberendts]

This has all been educational - I did manage a 1v2 victory last night at 37,000 feet beyond 12nm - I need to check my tacview to double check and calculate the actual distance - since it only displays engagement distance in feet.

[GGTharos]

You can change the units so that it displays nm.

[IASGATG]

Interesting, I used to get 20nm+ kills with the AIM-120C, head on before DCS 1.5.

 

 

Against players?

[SinusoidDelta]

Against players?

 

Yes.

 

From before the open beta: (Huge gif warning)

 

 

[IASGATG]

I think an AI would have defended better. ;) This is basically a non-defensive target drone.

[SinusoidDelta]

Kill is a kill. You didn't ask about the pilot's skill level :thumbup:

 

I still feel like something has changed post 1.5, not necessarily kinematics, maybe more related to chaff effectiveness. I probably have the acmi's to prove it but don't feel like sorting through them. That was a random gif I saved a long time ago.

[probad]

im sure you can still do the same now, but when your opponent is being a vegetable like that it becomes a race against all your teammates to see who can get to him first.

considering you spend most of your time climbing around doing your routine, its little wonder you haven't won the lottery since then.

Edited April 8, 2016 by probad

[Vitormouraa]

Against players?

 

I was possible against AI, one 120C at 9km altitude and wait, 100% chances to hit a Su-27. Then, 1.5 it seems to be nerfed. I really wanted to know what happened with 120C. And also the AI is dodging 120 at 10km.