Su-27. Extreme G-loads... G=?

[Ironhand]

Where can we find the ammunition weight?...

In the Mission Editor. Just set the rounds to "0". 100 rounds weighs 147 kg.

[probad]

Empty weight ~ 16500 kg, max fuel 9400 kg and max ext. payload ~ 4450 kg.

jftr empty weight in dcs is 17500kg

[Seaeagle]

Where can we find the ammunition weight? Gun ammo, missiles etc.

 

Edit

I found some in the manual.

I did not realize how heavy this missiles are.

R-27= 253kg

R-27ER= 350kg

R-27T= 254kg

R-27ET= 343kg

R-73= 105kg

 

Even so the A2A armament really only accounts for a fraction of the weight issue.

 

I am not sure if we need to find the missiles rail weight and bomb/rocket pylons. Some aircraft include this on their empty weight

 

I don't see how they could be counted into the empty weight.

 

I need to find the KMGU weight, rockets, rocket pods and gun ammo

 

A GSh-301 round weighs some 390 - 400 grams(depending on type) and the Su-27 carries 149 rounds, so roughly 60 kg it would seem.

 

- B8M-1 rocket pod(80 mm rockets) weighs 450 kg(150 kg empty).

 

- B-13L rocket pod (122 mm rockets) weighs 535 kg(160 kg empty).

Edited April 10, 2016 by Seaeagle

[probad]

to be honest weapon weight isn't nearly as significant as fuel weight. people are going to have to learn to plan out their flights better and defuel if needed so they can be near a safe maneuvering weight when they get to the action.

 

trading a few missiles for a higher safe fuel load may not be a bad idea though.

Edited April 10, 2016 by probad

[Seaeagle]

In the Mission Editor. Just set the rounds to "0". 100 rounds weighs 147 kg.

 

Sounds weird - that would mean 3 times the actual weight of the real rounds.

[karambiatos]

Sounds weird - that would mean 3 times the actual weight of the real rounds.

Well there's also the weight of the linkage?

[Seaeagle]

jftr empty weight in dcs is 17500kg

 

Well thats about a ton more than the real aircraft.

[GGTharos]

It isn't weird at all. This is just the weight of the projectile, not the entire cartridge.

[GGTharos]

Well thats about a ton more than the real aircraft.

 

A ton more under what circumstances? Is the 16500 empty weight including coolant, oil, unusable fuel and pilot?

[Seaeagle]

to be honest weapon weight isn't nearly as significant as fuel weight. people are going to have to learn to plan out their flights better and defuel if needed so they can be near a safe maneuvering weight when they get to the action.

 

Yup.

 

trading a few missiles for a higher safe fuel load may not be a bad idea though.

 

I don't know - hard to see a situation in the sim where you need anyway near the full fuel capacity.....half even.

[mvsgas]

Thanks guys, I think more info like this would help us all figure out how to best fly in the SU-27...the funny thing will be when ED tells us it was wrong and we have to re start. :doh: :D

 

I don't see how they could be counted into the empty weight.

 

For example, on the F-16, wing tip rails are part of the empty weight. When we did weight and balance on the aircraft, we did not removed the wing tip rails, we removed all others. On the F-117, we did not removed the MAU-12 neither for weight and balance. IIRC

[probad]

trading a few missiles for a higher safe fuel load may not be a bad idea though.

I don't know - hard to see a situation in the sim where you need anyway near the full fuel capacity.....half even.

 

some of the larger maps in a free hunt format like 104th it might help in order to come back home safely after the fight.

additionally, with the adjusted fuel loads now your sortie durations may not be long enough for you to find enough enemies to employ a full warload on.

Edited April 10, 2016 by probad

[DarkFire]

OK, here's a quick and dirty test I did.

 

Conditions were a standard DCS day, no wind, no clouds, no precipitation.

 

Load: 100% fuel, 100% gunpad, 100% expendables, 2x ECM, 2xR-73, 2x R-27ET, 4x R-27ER.

 

I did a series of turns at IAS from 450 to above 1100. max G was between 7 & 9 on each occasions. I also did a high speed barrel roll & some tight-ish loops.

 

Airframe failure did not occur.

Su-27 G Test ACMI.zip

Su-27 G Test Track.zip

[Seaeagle]

It isn't weird at all. This is just the weight of the projectile, not the entire cartridge.

 

Yes sorry the weight of the entire round is 840 grams - the weights I quoted was indeed just for the projectile.

 

But 100 x 0,84 kg = 84 kg.....not 147 kg.

[GGTharos]

I saw somewhere 54 boxed rounds 30x165 at 65kg.

[Seaeagle]

A ton more under what circumstances? Is the 16500 empty weight including coolant, oil, unusable fuel and pilot?

 

Well obviously not usable fuel and pilot.

[GGTharos]

Not necessarily ... if you look at F-15's -1, it includes the pilot, too :)

 

But anyway, my point is just that we don't know - I am wondering as well if it shouldn't be a ton lighter.

[probad]

the empty flanker still retains weapon rails so they account for something.

[GGTharos]

You're right, that's 8 pylons and they could easily come up to 1000kg total.

[mvsgas]

Using the DCS manual (page 24) and minus fuel and weapons it should be 17297kg empty weight in DCS if the manual is correct. I need to check mission editor.

Edited April 10, 2016 by mvsgas

[Seaeagle]

 

For example, on the F-16, wing tip rails are part of the empty weight.

 

They are on the Su-27 as well - they are only removed when fitting ECM pods. Wing pylons are composed of wing adapters and weapon specific launcher racks/rails with different weights, so their combined weight will differ depending on the loadout.

[Seaeagle]

I saw somewhere 54 boxed rounds 30x165 at 65kg.

 

Heavy box ;)

 

Not necessarily ... if you look at F-15's -1, it includes the pilot, too :)

 

Even so.....it would have be one seriously obese pilot to account for that extra ton of weight :D

 

But anyway, my point is just that we don't know - I am wondering as well if it shouldn't be a ton lighter.

 

Hmm - whats the empty weight of the Su-33 in DCS?

[esb77]

So, what I'd really like to see is some posted flight plans from these flights where wings came off. You did have flight plans, right?

 

 

I'd especially like to see the source or authority that was the basis for entering combat or performing BFM training at loads massively beyond what the manual states is allowable. Who signed off on that as an acceptable practice? This is aviation, there has to be traceable documentation somewhere, so where's the authorization for the overweight maneuvering?

 

 

 

 

The Russian Airforce typically does not load up every possible station with R-27 E versions. I'd guess that they also don't start pulling high g turns with full tanks.

 

 

The mass and speed for which the Su-27 is rated to pull 9 g is about what one would expect for a well planned and executed air combat mission that had closed to WVR. Are we supposed to be assuming that this is purely coincidence?

 

 

 

I mean really when it comes to problems with the aircraft simulations in DCS, the biggest most glaring flaw is that completely unqualified people are allowed to operate the aircraft with no qualified supervision.

 

On the other hand, having pilot error be the primary cause of aircraft loss means the folks at Eagle Dynamics must be doing something right. ;)

[Seaeagle]

the empty flanker still retains weapon rails so they account for something.

 

Yes thats a good point.

[Winston60]

.......When the plane starts to break at landing because excending maximum landing weight it´s gonna be another game changer.

Now the tires will often blow when landing heavy unless you PERFECTLY grease it. The tires also blow when just taxiing to runway too fast at gross overweight and hitting the brakes too long, usually the right main tire comes apart. Not sure of any other ground damage as of this new feature as I mostly come home winchester and dump fuel to less than 1000lbs. I'm tired of testing this. I'll let my issues and suggestions stand as previously reported here and I'm now going to spend some time flying and mission building.

 

.... one final thing.... I see so many people here with the impression that most of us do not like the new feature at all. That's not necessarily true. I think most Su-27 pilots that have weighed in here don't want the 20G capability returned, they just want it reviewed and tweaked by ED, perhaps with some new warnings and alternatives to the only result of over stress... explosion. Ed could just as easily damage the plane so RTB would be the only alternative, albeit it maybe a challenge just to do that! Or provide some documentation that Su-27's fly perfectly, with no adverse handling problems, right up until the wings come off.

 

Cheers all, and for now..... all you Hot Shots, please keep the total weight down, OK?