Problem with Gun damage

[Rlaxoxo]

I know you must be going "Arghhh this topic again ..."

 

But ... I don't know about you guys but me personally I'm having problems believing that 2x 30mm cannons that mirage uses have to hit the target 30 times in order to blow his wing off.

Unless it's an engine shot it takes alot of pin point shots at the exact place to destroy a plane.

And frankly I don't trust that 1 bit even tho the shell is smaller then the rest of the DCS shells ...

 

Example:

https://gfycat.com/EcstaticKeenFallowdeer

 

This is one of the good examples of gun working rather well (generaly its much worse then this), got this one from recording in the latest patch the Su-27 is a real player not an AI

Sometimes the shots go into the plane and I see little parts flying off the plane but in reality none of those shots did that much damage

 

So ya I think the guns are buggy and something should be done about them or i'm just jelly you decide : P

 

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Chart used in this thread: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/30mm%20cannon.htm

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Example of Bf-109 30mm cannon damage on an player Su-27

https://gfycat.com/CheerfulPowerfulAzurevase

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Comparison between some of the Cannons specs in DCS can be seen in the following comment

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2769268&postcount=14

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Problem Found: The Mirage cannon shells have 0 Explosive element in them making them pure AP rounds as seen in the next comment

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2770099&postcount=22

 

 

I have found a Source that tells how much explosive did DEFA shells have

Here is the link: (Page 11)

[ame]https://sin.thecthulhu.com/library/weapons/firearms/training/janes_ammunition_handbook_2008-2009.pdf[/ame]

 

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Final Edit:

Created new shell DEFA554_30_HE and loaded it into the cannon that replaced the DEFA554_30 shell that was pure AP and problem is solved the Mirage cannons feel like they should

Added 50 grams of HE element to the shell

 

More info here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2770434&postcount=28

 

Update:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2770922&postcount=36

 

Download link for the MOD can be found here:

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Edited May 8, 2016 by Rlaxoxo

[Darkbrotherhood7]

I know you must be going "Arghhh this topic again ..."

 

But ... I don't know about you guys but me personally I'm having problems believing that 2x 30mm cannons that mirage uses have to hit the target 30 times in order to blow his wing off.

Unless it's an engine shot it takes alot of pin point shots at the exact place to destroy a plane.

And frankly I don't trust that 1 bit even tho the shell is smaller then the rest of the DCS shells ...

 

Example:

https://gfycat.com/EcstaticKeenFallowdeer

 

This is one of the good examples of working gun as well, got this one from recording in the latest patch the Su-27 is a real player not an AI

Sometimes the shots go into the plane and I see little parts flying off the plane but in reality non of those shots did that much damage

 

So ya I think the guns are underpowered and something should be done about them or i'm just jelly you decide : P

 

I'm not sure, I agree that the DEFA 554 cannons have a low damage but, the real question is, this is realistic or not?

[Rlaxoxo]

I'm not sure, I agree that the DEFA 554 cannons have a low damage but, the real question is, this is realistic or not?

 

I mean, I know the shell is smaller then your average Su-27 shell but sometimes 10 or so shells go into the plane all I see is some random shrapnel fly off and the enemy plane literally sustained no damage ...

 

Even P-51 guns could arguably do more dmg then that ... sometimes

[Darkbrotherhood7]

I mean, I know the shell is smaller then your average Su-27 shell but sometimes 10 or so shells go into the plane all I see is some random shrapnel fly off and the enemy plane literally sustained no damage ...

 

Even P-51 guns could arguably do more dmg then that ... sometimes

I see your point but as I said, I'm not sure if it is realistic or not. Maybe that's a question to the Razbam Devs.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Darkbrotherhood7

[PiedDroit]

I'm not sure, I agree that the DEFA 554 cannons have a low damage but, the real question is, this is realistic or not?

There was another thread worth reading on that topic, with the info there it can reasonably be assumed that it should be rather equal to the SU-27's gun.

DEFA 554 Stopping Power

 

Interesting article about AA gun:

http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiA--iHlP_LAhVJrxoKHR6pCxg4ChAWCBswAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Faimt.unob.cz%2Farticles%2F07_02%2F07_02%2520(3).pdf&usg=AFQjCNG0jS4WpyEViwfQf1H-EebZTBIr5Q&bvm=bv.119028448,d.d2s

[RoflSeal]

I'm not sure, I agree that the DEFA 554 cannons have a low damage but, the real question is, this is realistic or not?

 

Matey, its a 30mm cannon, and there is 2 of them.

[Paganus]

IMHO the problem is in DCSW's core not any one module. All guns are currently not as effective as they should be.

[Darkbrotherhood7]

There was another thread worth reading on that topic, with the info there it can reasonably be assumed that it should be rather equal to the SU-27's gun.

DEFA 554 Stopping Power

I'll read!

;-)

[Darkbrotherhood7]

Matey, its a 30mm cannon, and there is 2 of them.

 

Dude, I don't have enough knowledge to talk about this subject, but keep in mind that it's not so simple, just because it's a 2x 30mm cannon, doesn't mean that it is powerful.

[AussieGhost789]

In the other thread about this I think someone said something about it firing only AP rounds at the moment. If this is true, that would explain the relatively minimal damage being inflicted.

[jojo]

Dude, I don't have enough knowledge to talk about this subject, but keep in mind that it's not so simple, just because it's a 2x 30mm cannon, doesn't mean that it is powerful.

 

Look in YouTube for Israelis Mirage III tearing off MiG 21 with guns.

Usually snap shot (low number of hit) and the MiG burst into flames.

But it was DEFA 552 with lower muzzle velocity.

 

Try to do that in DCS...

 

Apache helicopter also use 30x113 rounds, the effect on ground target is just terrific...

 

The problem is complex, it depends on both ammunition and target's damage model.

[Rlaxoxo]

Look in YouTube for Israelis Mirage III tearing off MiG 21 with guns.

Usually snap shot (low number of hit) and the MiG burst into flames.

But it was DEFA 552 with lower muzzle velocity.

 

Try to do that in DCS...

 

Apache helicopter also use 30x113 rounds, the effect on ground target is just terrific...

 

The problem is complex, it depends on both ammunition and target's damage model.

 

I think the Targets damage model is not really the problem since an F-15 can blow off a Su-27's wing with like 0.3 second burst if not less

While in mirage I literally have to hit it about 30 or 50 times (Sometimes)

 

While on this topic on the other thread someone linked this image

 

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/30mm%20cannon.htm

 

And stated that the muzzle velocity was lower (Doesn't mean much just means slower shell)

And if we go by that logic you can see the BF-109 30mm cannon which has slower fire rate slower muzzle velocity and has only 1x cannon and it does about 10 times more dmg then mirage

 

Please explain that if you're really questioning the realistic part

 

They're 2x 30mm cannons man like jojo said if you search like "mirage gun" camera on youtube you see how fast targets explode in air

Edited May 6, 2016 by Rlaxoxo

[mattebubben]

The Mirage 2000 cannons should be as effective or more effective then the SU-27/Mig-29s when it comes to damage done per burst.

 

As sure each shell is slightly lighter.

 

But you have 2 cannons fiering at the same ROF (or even slightly higher) as the single cannon of the GSH-301.

 

So you will have twice as many rounds (or more) impacting the target in the same period of time.

 

So if anything it should kill targets faster then the GSH-301 of the Russian fighters.

 

Since while the GSH-301 has a slightly larger shell fired at a slightly higher velocity the pure amount of Rounds the twin Defa 554s throw out gives it the advantage in devestation.

 

So the mirage 2000s guns are far to weak atm.

 

Muzzle velocity has not real impact on the damage a HE projectile does (And purely Kinetic AP projectiles are of very limited use in a Air-Air engagement and are only really used againt armored ground targets)

 

The only big impact the Muzzle velocity has in air-air combat is Accuracy / how much you have to lead the target (how quickly the rounds reach the target from when they are fired)

 

But in how much damage the projectile does comes down to the Projectile type and the explosive power of the shell.

Edited May 6, 2016 by mattebubben

[Rlaxoxo]

Okay I just did some testing and this is really ridiculous ...

I've did gun tests vs all the planes and mirage takes like 6 or so bursts to kill the P-51 if not more and other planes like BF-109 etc

 

But when a:

BF-109 with x1 cannon with Muzzle energy(42,100 Joules), Muzzle Velocity(505), less ROF and smaller diameter (Metric Calibre 30x90RB, Rim Diam mm 24.9, Body Diam mm 32.3)

Mirage with x2 cannons with Muzzle energy(81,000 Joules), Muzzle Velocity(810), more ROF and bigger diameter (Metric Calibre 30x113B, Rim Diam mm 33.3, Body Diam mm 32.3)

 

For reference the Su-27 Cannon(Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-301):

Su-27 with x1 cannon with Muzzle Energy(158,000 Joules), Muzzle Velocity(900), less ROF and bigger diameter (Metric Calibre 30x165, Rim Diam mm 40.0, Body Diam mm 40.0)

 

And then the B-109 does more damage then Mirage cannons (Which makes no logic as seen in the next clip) does more damage ...

 

Example Mk-108 Cannon:

https://gfycat.com/CheerfulPowerfulAzurevase

 

Example of DEFA-554 cannons:

https://gfycat.com/EcstaticKeenFallowdeer

 

BF-109 blows off a Su-27 wing with 1 Shell of its 30mm and people are debating that the Mirage shells are smaller then a Su-27's shells and hence could do less damage is completely messed up.

 

The cannons are weird now and they are not acting as true mirage cannons

Edited May 7, 2016 by Rlaxoxo

[jojo]

Ok I agree here, if Mk 108 ammo does more damage than DEFA 554 on the same target something is wrong !

[PiedDroit]

...

BF-109 blows off a Su-27 wing with 1 Shell of its 30mm and people are debating that the Mirage shells are smaller then a Su-27's shells and hence could do less damage is completely messed up.

 

Ok I agree here, if Mk 108 ammo does more damage than DEFA 554 on the same target something is wrong !

Mk108 round was very slow and contained a lot of explosives (very thin shell), it was more heavy than DEFA's (330g vs 275g), this gun was more comparable to an automatic grenade launcher.

It's best to compare DEFA against modern guns.

 

P.S.: I'm not saying there is nothing wrong. I agree that DEFA should be as deadly a the SU-27's gun, and therefore it feels a bit underpowered now. But comparison with Mk108 is a bit too much.

See link you posted, I quoted it on page 1 of this thread and sums it up nicely I think.

Compare with this.

Edited May 6, 2016 by PiedDroit

[jojo]

There's something weird in your reasoning:

- you say Mk 108 rounds are more destructive than DEFA 554 because they are heavier

- and DEFA 554 and GSH-30-1 should be comparable

 

But:

- you can't totally remove kinetic energy from the equation (even if it's not the only effect), and modern guns rounds are a lot more faster.

- GSH-30-1 rounds are both heavier (400g) and faster (860m/s) than Mk-108 rounds.

Edited May 7, 2016 by jojo

[Deathbane]

Declassified images of RAZBAMs special ammunition for Mirage 2000c

 

[Rlaxoxo]

Declassified images of RAZBAMs special ammunition for Mirage 2000C

 

 

So true : D

[PiedDroit]

There's something weird in your reasoning:

- you say Mk 108 rounds are more destructive than DEFA 554 because they are heavier [i never wrote this was the reason. It relates to quantity of explosives]

- and DEFA 554 and GSH-30-1 should be comparable [Yes, from the document you posted]

 

But:

- you can't totally remove kinetic energy from the equation (even if it's not the only effect), and modern guns rounds are a lot more faster. [i'm not an expert, see the document you posted for equations]

- GSH-30-1 rounds are both heavier (400g) and faster (860m/s) than Mk-108 rounds.[you forget explosive effect. Mk108 probably have 3x more explosive]

See my replies in bold.

Edited May 7, 2016 by PiedDroit

[jojo]

Ok I found this:

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/96933-mk108-inconsistent-damage/

 

So indeed the 30x90RB HE round would pack 85g or 72g of explosive, which is a lot.

But API were also used with less explosive.

 

DEFA 554 can use different rounds like the OMEI which is equivalent to a HE.

But the most common is the OSPEI which is do everything round.

 

The HE round would explode on surface of the target while the OSPEI would penetrate deeper before exploding. So the effectiveness depends on target.

 

Yet the firing rate of DEFA 554 is 3x that of the Mk-108 and there are 2 of them on Mirage.

So with a burst you have more chance to have multiple hit and same or higher explosive weight.

[Rlaxoxo]

Okay so I was reviewing some code for the mirage guns and I have came up with an interesting conclusion

 

gun_mount_templates["DEFA_554"] =

{

gun = dbtype("wGun",

{

max_burst_length = 25,

rates = {1800,1200},

 

recoil_coeff = 0.7*1.3,

});

 

supply = ammo_supply_simple({

shells = shell_ref("DEFA552_30")

});

drop_cartridge = cartridge_30mm;

 

effective_fire_distance = 1800;

}

 

This is how the shell is defined

 

shell("DEFA552_30", _("DEFA552_30"), {

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

v0 = 820.0,

Dv0 = 0.0040,

Da0 = 0.0008,

Da1 = 0.0,

mass = 0.242,

round_mass = 0.567,

explosive = 0.0000,

life_time = 5,

caliber = 30.0,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {0.5,0.75,0.78,0.270,1.65},

k1 = 2.0e-08,

tracer_off = 4,

scale_tracer = 1,

 

name = "30mm AP",

 

cartridge = 0,

 

As you can see the DEFA 554 cannon is loaded with DEFA 552_30 shells and doesn't even state that it has HE element in them ... idk ...

 

This is an example of the Su-27's 30 mm shell

 

shell("GSH301_30_HE", _("GSH301_30_HE"), {

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

v0 = 890.0,

Dv0 = 0.0081,

Da0 = 0.0005,

Da1 = 0.0,

mass = 0.390,

round_mass = 0.98,

explosive = 0.390, -- 0.0720 kg in real

life_time = 6,

caliber = 30.0,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {0.7,0.70,0.25,0.236,2.31},

k1 = 7.6e-09,

tracer_on = 0.01,

tracer_off = 4,

scale_tracer = 1,

 

name = "30mm HE",

 

cartridge = 0,

});

 

It's getting late so I'll poke around this subject a bit more tomorrow for now you guys feel free to think of this as you wish

Edited May 7, 2016 by Rlaxoxo

[Skjold]

I highly doubt they use AP only in the real DEFA cannons, that makes no sense but it seems the mirage does in DCS.

[jojo]

As I said above, now Mirage use OSPEI round, which has combined effects: HE + AP + I

 

It's not as AP as a true AP round, it doesn't have as many HE as a true HE round but it does both + incendiary.

 

Nice finding about DCS code :thumbup:

[Rlaxoxo]

As I said above, now Mirage use OSPEI round, which has combined effects: HE + AP + I

 

It's not as AP as a true AP round, it doesn't have as many HE as a true HE round but it does both + incendiary.

 

Nice finding about DCS code :thumbup:

 

Hey jojo can you dig me up some information about DEFA 554 shells and how much explosives they have it them?

 

I'm gonna try and see if it helps