wsoul2k Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 The F-5EM get his first kill against the mirage2000 in Brazil using (probally the Derby missile) Until yesterday the score to the litle figther was: 1 Mirage 2000N 2 A-37 1 A-1(AMX) Click here for english version The mirage from the BAF ( Blue Air Force ) was intercepted in an scranble mission while scorting some A-1 tryng to do a runway interdiction in the RAF ( Red Air Force ) airfiled btw thsi is the CURZEX training operation going on in Brazil with Argentina, Chile, France, Uruguai e Venezuela cya (One question why we buy the M2k if our F-5EM can do his job :huh: ) Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4
hitman Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 It aint the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog.
Pilotasso Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 One question why we buy the M2k if our F-5EM can do his job :huh: Lets start answering the question by referring to the concept of simulated training: -Its scripted -Its donne so that the aircraft in question finds its targets within its possible range. Comparison to Real life: -very low fuel capacity in the F-5 EM -Enemy locates Air bases and draws a circle arround each one indicating Brazils F-5EM reach. -Enemy plots attack route outside those circles, or: -Enemy uses its dedicated air superiority fighter radar to get first BVR shot. -F-5EM weight with Derby missiles is high. Lets face it: F-5EM is very Limited in all aspects. No matter how good the radar on the tiger is, the shear difference of antenna size compared to every other fighter included the mirage 2000 ofsets any tencnological quality the F-5 radar electronics might have. The radome is miniscule. The F-5 will be easely bingo'ed in any intercept or dogfight it does with afterburner. Any decent Air superiority fighter will detect get first BVR shot. In my view the cancelation of new fighters and the upgrade of the F-5's is a desperate move caused by financial constarints. The alternative was not to have any air defense at all, and for a country like brazil it would be a disaster in military and even in diplomatic aspects. .
wsoul2k Posted August 30, 2006 Author Posted August 30, 2006 Lets start answering the question by referring to the concept of simulated training: -Its scripted -Its donne so that the aircraft in question finds its targets within its possible range. No the CRUZEX its is not scripted...the forces dont know where the figthers are or even who is flying at the moment. The mission plan to each side are done by separated teams all trying to beat the other Comparison to Real life: -very low fuel capacity in the F-5 EM One Word REVO :smilewink: -Enemy locates Air bases and draws a circle arround each one indicating Brazils F-5EM reach. -Enemy plots attack route outside those circles, or: -Enemy uses its dedicated air superiority fighter radar to get first BVR shot. Well they dont are having to much succes in using its air superiority fighter radar.....but they are getting the FIRST shot .....in the FACE :lol: -F-5EM weight with Derby missiles is high. But he still capable of using it ...dont see what you mean about that Lets face it: F-5EM is very Limited in all aspects. No matter how good the radar on the tiger is, the shear difference of antenna size compared to every other fighter included the mirage 2000 ofsets any tencnological quality the F-5 radar electronics might have. The radome is miniscule. I know it is limited...but do you know the F-5EM ? ...its randome was redesigned by EMBRAER it is bigger now and his radar is very capable off firing BVR shots with DATALINK something the MIRAGE 2000 Brazil bougth cant do it The F-5 will be easely bingo'ed in any intercept or dogfight it does with afterburner. It is used to DEFENSIVE purposes and he is very capable in doing it..( The CRUZEX is proven that ) Any decent Air superiority fighter will detect get first BVR shot. We really cant proven that.... the MIRAGE in your opinion is bether Air superiority fighter and until now he was not capable of doing it (No the missions are not SCRIPTED AGAIN) In my view the cancelation of new fighters and the upgrade of the F-5's is a desperate move caused by financial constarints. The alternative was not to have any air defense at all, and for a country like brazil it would be a disaster in military and even in diplomatic aspects. You really dont have a clue what happens in the cancelation of FX. The reasons are much more DEEPER then you think and start with EMBRAER association with DASSAULT. The upgrade to the F-5 force have nothing to do with the cancelation this upgrade was ALREADY programed even during the selection to the NEW figther the AQUISITION of the MIRAGE2000 was the SOLUTION the cancelament.....and theyr purposes are to FILL THE GAP until a new one was chosed ( Some rumours about the Rafale but FAB dont wanna it and the NAVY wanna ) But i dont think we will have any decison until the New president was elected Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4
nscode Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 No matter how good the radar on the tiger is, the shear difference of antenna size compared to every other fighter included the mirage 2000 ofsets any tencnological quality the F-5 radar electronics might have. Hey, GG, would you look at this guy :) In my view the cancelation of new fighters and the upgrade of the F-5's is a desperate move caused by financial constarints. The alternative was not to have any air defense at all, and for a country like brazil it would be a disaster in military and even in diplomatic aspects. Not haveing your own air defense is actually more costly then running it your self since you have to have it under international regulations, and if you don't have your own you have to pay someone to do it for you. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Pilotasso Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 No the CRUZEX its is not scripted...the forces dont know where the figthers are or even who is flying at the moment. The mission plan to each side are done by separated teams all trying to beat the other One Word REVO :smilewink: Well they dont are having to much succes in using its air superiority fighter radar.....but they are getting the FIRST shot .....in the FACE :lol: But he still capable of using it ...dont see what you mean about that I know it is limited...but do you know the F-5EM ? ...its randome was redesigned by EMBRAER it is bigger now and his radar is very capable off firing BVR shots with DATALINK something the MIRAGE 2000 Brazil bougth cant do it It is used to DEFENSIVE purposes and he is very capable in doing it..( The CRUZEX is proven that ) We really cant proven that.... the MIRAGE in your opinion is bether Air superiority fighter and until now he was not capable of doing it (No the missions are not SCRIPTED AGAIN) You really dont have a clue what happens in the cancelation of FX. The reasons are much more DEEPER then you think and start with EMBRAER association with DASSAULT. The upgrade to the F-5 force have nothing to do with the cancelation this upgrade was ALREADY programed even during the selection to the NEW figther the AQUISITION of the MIRAGE2000 was the SOLUTION the cancelament.....and theyr purposes are to FILL THE GAP until a new one was chosed ( Some rumours about the Rafale but FAB dont wanna it and the NAVY wanna ) But i dont think we will have any decison until the New president was elected Well if the Mirage 2000 is in your shoping list after all the aquisition turmoil, then I say you are much better served with it. It may not have datalink but it is an all round better aircraft than the F-5 is. There is so much you can do with a 30 year old short range airframes anyway. The mirage has several different export options including better configurations that the french air force itself has, its a question of what it suits you guys better. You have the option for MICA missiles too. Qualifying it for the Derby or other missiles could be very easy. If you dont have Mirages better in all aspects than the F-5 is then its because your country chose not to get all the goodies on the french plane. .
Guest ThomasDWeiss Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 FAB did not update the Tiger for any other reason than it had plenty of shelf life left, they started this update program years ago, and it makes a lot of sense. And this update was not done because of the FX debacle. A few reasons why the Tiger update is a great choice First, Brazil's FAB has both AEW and C3 - which offsets any problems the F-5 would have finding an enemy Second, Brazil will receive a dozen Mirage 2000 in the next 24 months so they will have a high performance fighter when it is needed. Third, it is cost effective - for a few hundred million FAB will get some 60 up to date fighters. And Fourth and most important: Brazil will have the know how , they did not just buy a package, but EMBRAER and Brazil's branch of ELBIT now can use it to upgrade the AMX. And the same package is being used on 99 ALX Super Tucano - where they replaced the radar with a belly mounted FLIR. By the way, after the 2000C comes the Rafale, which is Brazil's next fighter.
Pilotasso Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 Hey, GG, would you look at this guy :) Ahh another provocation... :D :P But you know as well as me you cant just keep getting it smaller and smaller and put it on the same bag as my baby. ;) .
GGTharos Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 Hey, GG, would you look at this guy :) Ehehe :D This is where the discussion comes to 'well what useful are all those MiG-21's for? (and thus, F-5s) In a defensive setting, you are not obligated to send your forces up to meet the opponents head-on. With a light aircraft such as the F-5, you can park near a good enough road, listen to the radio and launch just as the enemy task force flies overhead. They'll never see you coming up under them in ideal conditions. This is why defense is done by the cheap little planes - you can afford to be fairly sneaky in defense. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
AerialHawk Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 Or maybe because the government couldn't care less. It's been like that since the military dictatorship ended. Don't talk about things you have no clue about. edit- this was a reply to pilotasso's comment about "the country not wanting to get all the goodies of the french fighter".
Pilotasso Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 Ehehe :D This is where the discussion comes to 'well what useful are all those MiG-21's for? (and thus, F-5s) I would like to add that there were as many mig-21 variants as the radars that equiped them. Almost all of them C.R.A.P. but not always is so as shown for the Bison and its Phazatron Kopyo radar. Or maybe because the government couldn't care less. It's been like that since the military dictatorship ended. Don't talk about things you have no clue about. edit- this was a reply to pilotasso's comment about "the country not wanting to get all the goodies of the french fighter". "Not caring less" lead Brazil the aquisition of AWACS aircraft and a carrier. I do grant that those who are born in a country know it better but, since when do you know govermental internal afairs anyway? ANd why would I want to claim I did for an academic fighter comparison? .
FanBoy2006.01 Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 I don't think that it is shuch a big deal that a F5 won a Mirage F1 in training. I read years ago (I was still in school and can't remember the source.) that RAF Jaguars "killed" two F15's in training over Europe; I think. What aparently happened was that a pair of F15's saw a pair of Jaguars passing below them. While the wingman provided cover, the lead F15 roled in behind the Jaguars only to be "shot down" by a pair of Jaguars that were trailing the first pair. Then the second F15 roled in behind the second pair of Jaguars to take them out. But unfortunately there were a third pair of Jaguars trailing behind the second pair of Jaguars! PS the pairs of Jaguars was widely spaced so the F15's didn't see the trailing pairs.
nscode Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 I would like to add that there were as many mig-21 variants as the radars that equiped them. Almost all of them C.R.A.P. but not always is so as shown for the Bison and its Phazatron Kopyo radar. Think of 21's radar more of just a guidance system for the radar missiles, and a way to "see" WVR in low visibility. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Pilotasso Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 I don't think that it is shuch a big deal that a F5 won a Mirage F1 in training. I read years ago (I was still in school and can't remember the source.) that RAF Jaguars "killed" two F15's in training over Europe; I think. What aparently happened was that a pair of F15's saw a pair of Jaguars passing below them. While the wingman provided cover, the lead F15 roled in behind the Jaguars only to be "shot down" by a pair of Jaguars that were trailing the first pair. Then the second F15 roled in behind the second pair of Jaguars to take them out. But unfortunately there were a third pair of Jaguars trailing behind the second pair of Jaguars! PS the pairs of Jaguars was widely spaced so the F15's didn't see the trailing pairs. I confirm I have that occurrence mentioned on one of my books, yes. But thinking straigh up straigh down fighters to actively rely on these upsets is a bit leting your imagination go too far. You didnt say specificaly this, but it apears the way this thread is going. .
Pilotasso Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 Think of 21's radar more of just a guidance system for the radar missiles, and a way to "see" WVR in low visibility. Their doctrine was to let GCI make their way to close contact, but if the Bison can throw in R-77's, even if not taking the advantage of all its potential detection-firing range, its because that new concept endevoured something more independent from ground controll, in an atempt to match modern equipment and tactics. It says little about its perfomance but analysts say some good things about it and I have to pay some attention to it as well. My personal conviction, my guess only, is that, as it was 30 years ago this mig continues to be overall better suited for air defense than the F-5 untill this day. .
nscode Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 was talking about early versions :) Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Guest ThomasDWeiss Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 First news and photos of the exercise http://www.alide.com.br/noticias/cruzex3_05/index.htm
Vati Posted August 31, 2006 Posted August 31, 2006 Before you guys go crazy over f5, please open your dictionary and read the explanation of what 'training' means. http://www.condorsoaring.com
wsoul2k Posted August 31, 2006 Author Posted August 31, 2006 Before you guys go crazy over f5, please open your dictionary and read the explanation of what 'training' means. Go do a traning to be a RANGER or go do a Jungle Traning HERE in Brazil and you will NEVER trust again in a dictionary :megalol: Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4
Vati Posted August 31, 2006 Posted August 31, 2006 whatever you are smoking, it is not healthy... http://www.condorsoaring.com
wsoul2k Posted August 31, 2006 Author Posted August 31, 2006 whatever you are smoking, it is not healthy... Im not smoking ...im drinking :beer: Rodrigo Monteiro LOCKON 1.12 AMD 3.8 X2 64 2G DDR ATI X1800XT 512 SAITEK X-36 AND VERY SOON TRACKIR-4
Force_Feedback Posted August 31, 2006 Posted August 31, 2006 whatever you are smoking, it is not healthy... But it sounds like it's fab. herb. (If it isn't weed, or is some hard drug, then you're nuts and really retarded) All they got to do over there is please Uncle Sam and shoot down the occasional druglord, nothing the Tucano can't handle. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:
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